please post here your personal takes (epiphanies, insights, aha!s, experiences, realizations, conjectures, theories, speculations, understandings, misunderstandings, interpretations, misinterpretations, etc.).

together let's create an atmosphere of trust and safety, so that we can all rest assured that the personal information we share will be met with respect. okay?

effort* is in direct proportion to the dominance of the self. the more the self is in control, the more effort it takes to act, even to simply be. if self were 'absent' ... would ALL of our actions be effortless?

* as opposed to the effortlessness krishnamurti so often speaks of

how many times do i have to hit my head against the wall before i finally stop? do i enjoy the head bashing, find it exhilirating, dramatic, exciting? or is my head-bashing habit so deeply ingrained that it happens automatically, by reflex? what do i 'gain' and what do i 'lose' from ending the bashings? is the Truth in the bashing ... or the ending of the bashing ... or both ... or neither?

I find that, in those moments when I feel that I most clearly understand what K is trying to convey . . . my understanding is circular rather than linear.

My mind insists upon understanding in a straight line (how to get from here to there, or how I got here from there). So . . . maybe that part of me that best understands K is not of the mind.

My mind tells me that to understand in circles gets me nowhere . . . that I will always wind up where I began.

That other part of me says that this is as it should be because beginnings and endings are indistinguishable in the timeless realm of the now.

My mind tells me that closed circles can not be expanded to allow for new experiences and understandings.

That other part of me says that lines go on forever and allow for very little deviation, but circles of understanding, once closed, can be set free to make room for new circles of understanding.

Or . . . who knows . . . maybe there are circles within circles within circles????

perhaps spirals (which are open) rather than closed circles?

rachMiel ... wrote:
perhaps spirals (which are open) rather than closed circles?

What a delightfully surprising response to my post!!!

Not only did you get what I was trying to express (about my understanding being circular as opposed to linear thinking or logic), but you understood it well enough to be able to express it much better than I could (that's often the feeling I get when reading K too. Not only does he "get me," . . . but he "gets me" even better than I get myself).

Yep . . . spirals . . . circular understanding capable of expansion and flexibility.

linda, i'm really glad something i happened upon resonated for you. :-) that's what we're here for, yes? :-)

Had a ear surgery two days ago. Feeling dull now. Under anaesthesia I transcended time. I knew a few seconds of one evening, an hour of night, and a morning.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

rachMiel ... wrote:

please post here your personal takes (epiphanies, insights, aha!s, experiences, realizations, conjectures, theories, speculations, understandings, misunderstandings, interpretations, misinterpretations, etc.).

together let's create an atmosphere of trust and safety, so that we can all rest assured that the personal information we share will be met with respect. okay?

Randal Shacklett wrote:
But if we see clearly, that the apparatus we employ to give us that(psychological comfort and security), was designed to do just the opposite, we might not continue, generation after generation, with that/this type of insanity based actions.

Yes, we possess a poor, a bad apparatus that hurts, insults, fears and causes fears to others. We can't do away with it as we are the apparatus. Any talk about Awareness, Attention as a means to get overboard is the trick employed by the apparatus. So what's one to do? In Gurdjiffian, Ouspenskian sense we have to fully realize 'we can't do'. Only then can our inner conflict can come to an end as all hopes toward an ideal will vanish. In that vulnerability our relationship will be quite different, Randal; we won't hurt each other. Even if we get hurt, we won't retain it.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

ramesh: hi. :-)

we have to fully realize 'we can't do'. Only then can our inner conflict can come to an end as all hopes toward an ideal will vanish.

it sounds like you are talking about a deep, profound, down-to-the-bones GIVING UP. yes?

rachMiel ... wrote:
it sounds like you are talking about a deep, profound, down-to-the-bones GIVING UP. yes?

An ending in which there's a new beginning.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J