Please post messages here that address the issue of the ground (i.e., ultimate unchanging Truth).

for some reason i care deeply about the answer to the question: does there exist a permanent, absolute ground? i'm not sure why this matters so much to me. perhaps it's the classic human drive to make sense of the inexplicable by attributing it to a supreme entity. perhaps it's the Truth urging me to see it. perhaps it's something else entirely.

Perhaps it gas. ;o)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Ahhhh, the comfort and security of stories about the supernatural around the campfire. Anybody got any marshmellows to roast?
Good golly rachMiel... don't you ever tire of feel good stories of the great beyond? ;o)

I think a permanent absolute ground exists and we have to find it.

randal: hi. :-) hey, at age 56 i still race to the local theater whenever a sexy new movie with explosions and/or monsters comes out! so, no, i never seem to tire of stories. and perhaps the ground is exactly this: a sexy story. Ground followed by the sequel Son of Ground followed by Bride of Son of Ground? ;-)

but what if the ground is, in fact, the only thing that is NOT a story?

Yiming Zhang wrote:

I think a permanent absolute ground exists and we have to find it.

i'm with you on this, yiming. and i think that the 'finding' is probably a process of realizing (way deep down, not just in the head) that the ground is right there, we are embedded in it, we ARE it. systematic dropping of the veils?

Is that a hunch or a hypothesis? Bohm and K said there is.

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

A hunch, Keshni. Maybe, woman's intuition, in the case of rachMiel.

And it has nothing to do with K or Bohm but it's comforting to know there are two more out there who share our gut-feel that this amazing reality has no basis.

Sorry, what I meant was that this amazing reality does have a basis.

Yes, rachMiel, dropping of veils. Like the way it's done in a belly dance of the seven veils?

My fear is, what happens if we die before the seventh veil falls?

keshni: hi. :-) for me it's a deep-down-in-the-bones feeling. and, like yiming, i find it comforting and encouraging to know that realized beings like krishnamurti believed in the ground.

Yiming Zhang wrote:

My fear is, what happens if we die before the seventh veil falls?

then you've still got some work left to do on the other side. :-)

then you've still got some work left to do on the other side. :-)

Sorry, my dear. There is no other side.

What makes you think there is "the other side"? Tell me. I will keep an open mind and listen to what you have to say.

i can't know for a 'fact' that there is an other side. and i can't know that there isn't. i'm just keeping my options open, that's all. ;-)

rachMiel ... wrote:
does there exist a permanent, absolute ground?

Hi rachMiel,

When I put this question to myself I hit a blank wall. My usual response to this ultimate question is a belief or scepticism or a sense of bewilderment. I won't say I live by bread alone; some deeper faith does operate in me. But still.. one is not so sure of things.

Instead of breaking my head over that which is ungraspable, I have found out a new approach. See if I make sense. Can we put a question about the Ground and seek no answer in the usual sense. That means no hope, no desire, no frustration, no pleading, no belief, no disbelief...

What is that state mind?

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

The self which is so utterly fictitious and unreal never doubts its own reality and is presumptuous enough to question the reality of the Ground, the Real. What a joke! Think of it.

"Care not for time and success. Act out thy part, whether it be to fail or to prosper."

H P Shukla wrote:

The self which is so utterly fictitious and unreal never doubts its own reality and is presumptuous enough to question the reality of the Ground, the Real. What a joke! Think of it.

another good joke: self, fictional story upon story upon story, dictates (literally) what we do, think, believe 90% (more?) of the time. there IS someone home. but that someone is a set of overlapping fictional storylines. now THAT's entertainment! ;-)

Ramesh G wrote:

Can we put a question about the Ground and seek no answer in the usual sense. That means no hope, no desire, no frustration, no pleading, no belief, no disbelief...

beautiful. :-) just ask ... and listen. see what arises in response to the question.

rachMiel ... wrote:
for some reason i care deeply about the answer to the question: does there exist a permanent, absolute ground?

RachMiel, thank you so much for inviting us to address the issue of the ground (which you identify as ?ultimate unchanging Truth?).
For me, this question is at the heart of all that K has to say.

Before a friend of mine introduced me to K, I believed in ultimate unchanging truths. All of my efforts at understanding myself, others, and the world around me were my attempt to access ultimate unchanging truths. Before K, it never occurred to me that I can not possibly search for something unless I already have some idea of what it is I am searching for and that, once I have some idea of what it is I am searching for, I have limited my access to only that which I already know.

The problem for me (with the potential existence of an ?ultimate unchanging truth?) is that, the moment I buy into that, I buy into the idea that my truth must be your?s and vice versa. Therefore, if our truths are different, I feel threatened by your?s. If our truths are different, one of us must be right and the other must be wrong.

On the other hand, if we do not search for any ?ultimate unchanging truth,? but rather just examine every here-and-now for falsities, what we are left with is the truth. What I am left with in any given moment is not necessarily what you are left with . . . but that?s OK. What I am left with in this moment is not necessarily what I will be left with in the next or was left with in the last, but that?s OK.

While, on the surface, it seems like an ?ultimate unchanging truth? would simplify my life . . . it only complicates everything by causing me to compare everyone and everything to this ?ultimate unchanging truth.?

Maybe the only ?ultimate unchanging truth? is that ultimately, the truth changes from one person to another and one moment to the next. Maybe, once I accept that the only consistency in myself and the world around lies in the consistency with which they are inconsistent (both within and between themselves), all the complexities involved in trying to be consistent from one moment to the next (within the realm of unchanging truths) will melt away into the simplicity of what is.

Linda Thorlakson wrote:
The problem for me (with the potential existence of an ?ultimate unchanging truth?) is that, the moment I buy into that, I buy into the idea that my truth must be your?s and vice versa. Therefore, if our truths are different, I feel threatened by your?s. If our truths are different, one of us must be right and the other must be wrong.

On the other hand, if we do not search for any ?ultimate unchanging truth,? but rather just examine every here-and-now for falsities, what we are left with is the truth. What I am left with in any given moment is not necessarily what you are left with . . . but that?s OK. What I am left with in this moment is not necessarily what I will be left with in the next or was left with in the last, but that?s OK.

Linda, well said. That's great feeling.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

Ramesh G wrote:
Linda, well said. That's great feeling.

You really think Linda's position is correct? Sorry, but that sounds like a cop out to me. Forgive me for the language. I don't mean to be rude.

Linda is afraid of conflict between my truth and your truth as is being played out in our world of wars and much hatred. To avoid conflict, Linda suggests that we all chase butterflies and rainbows instead. That's well and good for Linda and you. I would like to join you too if you can also convince all the rest of the folks with the guns and machettes out there in our world to drop their truths.

rachMiel ... wrote:
i can't know for a 'fact' that there is an other side. and i can't know that there isn't. i'm just keeping my options open, that's all. ;-)

If you admit faith (which is the same as keeping options open), then your search for the truth will be compromised by beliefs. This would corrupt your integrity. The permanent ground that you seek is you where no untruth can find refuge.

To put it simply, the reason why we look for a better world is because there is no one in this damn world that you can really trust.

H P Shukla wrote:
The self which is so utterly fictitious and unreal never doubts its own reality and is presumptuous enough to question the reality of the Ground, the Real. What a joke! Think of it.

Shuklaji, though I didn't like what you said, I had a dream yesterday where I was wondering at the whole of Existence without any question. I was experiencing a miracle of sorts.

The self may be a joke, and the Ground something real for you. I would like to go slow on this. Touching the Ground is different from believing in It. If you have found it, please share; it will give us strength.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

Yiming Zhang wrote:
Linda is afraid of conflict between my truth and your truth as is being played out in our world of wars and much hatred.

Actually, Yiming, my fear is that if I believe my truth to be the one and only absolute truth, then I may feel compelled to force my truth upon you (for your own good, of course) or to fight you (if I feel that you are trying to force your's on me).

If, however, I do not become attached to the idea that there is only one truth (or to the idea that it needs to endure beyond the present moment), this allows me to be open to the idea that you and I, as individuals, can coexist peacefully regardless of our differences.

The idea of ending war is so overwhelming to me that I wouldn't have a clue where to begin. But . . . the idea that you and I can see the world very differently and live our lives very differently, and yet, exist peacefully side-by-side (possibly even supporting and encouraging one another in understanding ourselves and the world around us even when our understandings are different) . . . well . . . maybe this is where to begin to end war.

To me, it doesn't so much matter whether we agree that the nature of the truth is fleeting or enduring. What matters to me is that it not matter to me whether you agree with me or not.

Ramesh G wrote:
Shuklaji, though I didn't like what you said, I had a dream yesterday where I was wondering at the whole of Existence without any question. I was experiencing a miracle of sorts.
The self may be a joke, and the Ground something real for you. I would like to go slow on this. Touching the Ground is different from believing in It. If you have found it, please share; it will give us strength.

Dear Ramesh,
What is there that you don't like? The self is a fiction, an unreality - K said it a thousand times. As for the Ground, you don't doubt your buttocks because all the time you are sitting on it. The Ground is always there, the only Reality. Only the self has veiled it and created something like an Asuric Maya. Self is Dhritarashtra, one who has usurped the divine kingdom. In moments when the self thins or is in abeyance, the veil is gone, and the Ground is there. These are only hints, nothing more can be said. Hope I make myself clear. Go on sir, knock, knock, knock and the door will open. I don't mind if you don't like what I say - I am a little of a crackpot, I know. Regards and best wishes, HP

"Care not for time and success. Act out thy part, whether it be to fail or to prosper."

Linda Thorlakson wrote:
The idea of ending war is so overwhelming to me that I wouldn't have a clue where to begin. But . . . the idea that you and I can see the world very differently and live our lives very differently, and yet, exist peacefully side-by-side (possibly even supporting and encouraging one another in understanding ourselves and the world around us even when our understandings are different) . . . well . . . maybe this is where to begin to end war.

You are a wonderful soul and a poet too, Linda. What you say is sheer Beauty.

"Care not for time and success. Act out thy part, whether it be to fail or to prosper."

H P Shukla wrote:
Go on sir, knock, knock, knock and the door will open.

Thank you. I will do so, sir.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

H P Shukla wrote:
The self is a fiction, an unreality - K said it a thousand times.

When you bring in K , you dont stand on your feet.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

Ramesh G wrote:
When you bring in K , you dont stand on your feet.

I only thought that if you are deaf to me you will probably listen to K because you are on a K forum. But if you can throw K out of window and say that K is dead, finished, then certainly you are on your feet. Good luck, Ramesh. Regards, HP.

"Care not for time and success. Act out thy part, whether it be to fail or to prosper."

rachMiel,

For some the Ground or the Higher Self is the only Reality; they won't admit of the 'me'. For others 'me' is the only reality; they will believe in a God but still it will the God of the 'me'.

K talks about 'me' being the door; he doesn't take extreme sides. Can the 'me' be door to something. And what is that something? If the 'me' is a myth how can it be a door?

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J