Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What does it mean to deny and yet live with what is?


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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #61
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
To see wholeness does not mean that understanding is complete, does it?

Dan McDermott wrote:
I would say that the 'wholeness', 'vastness', creator, 'god', can't be known or seen....only the 'manifested' available to our senses (and instruments?) and that which is limited by our 'scale of time',color,sound, materiality etc.

If the “wholeness, vastness, creator, God” can’t be known or seen, doesn’t that mean that I (the mind) can’t be aware of it, that it is an inference, a supposition, an idea - which is thought, isn’t it? If the “wholeness, vastness, creator, God” can’t be known or seen, why are we concerning ourselves with it? What is its significance in the face of our burning problems?

Is awareness not needed for self-understanding, for learning about the mind, about confusion, compulsion, fear, sorrow, action, freedom, consciousness, relationship, and so on? I’m not trying to convince you of anything, just looking into the implications of what we are saying.

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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #62
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
You say in your reply to Tom, “we lost our connection with the whole”. What does that mean? How can we know that?

Dan McDermott wrote:
Obviously I can't, I can only infer that 'something' was lost in us that all the other creatures seem, because of their relative harmony, to still have.

“Inferring” is not “seeing”, is it? How can we say that something was lost in us? Can we be sure that we ever had “it”? We can only know - in the sense of “observe” - that we want that inferred “something”. No?

Whatever the other creatures have, the wild and free creatures, do we want everything in their life - being hunter or prey, etc. - or just that “something” we don’t have? Can we just observe that desire and its influence?

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Sat, 30 Dec 2017 #63
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4656 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I also understand that in the moment, only a fragment is active. However, that moment does not negate the whole, does it? Can’t I - the mind - see both simultaneously: the fragment and the whole, the tree and the forest, the bird in the tree and the tree?

I would start a new thread, except in my experience that is the quickest way to bring a discussion to an end :-)

So how is the whole - and it seems by "the whole" we are referring to the whole of human consciousness, the reservoir - to be seen, as you suggest, Huguette? If "I" am always a fragment - which is how it seems at the moment at least - how can that fragment see the whole? Can it?

Your analogies of tree/forest etc have particular meaning, but I do not see how they apply to seeing the whole of human consciousness. I am outside of the forest, or appear to be, and so can see the forest, but I am I outside the reservoir?

Huguette . wrote:
In any case, the reservoir of human consciousness is not what I was questioning. It was the word “enter” that made me think that you see the image as “entering” human consciousness from the outside, from the environment.

Yes, I think the word "enter" is misleading, wrong. I am drawn to the word "manifest". Is it that the reservoir manifests in a particular brain, at any given moment? And that is what our 'individual' conscious is, a manifestation of the reservoir (I am using the word "individual" with great caution)?

Huguette . wrote:
This suggests to me that you view the image as a flat, one-dimensional photograph of sorts, an image “taken in” by the brain much like a tourist takes photographs of things on the “outside”. That's where the misunderstanding between us lies, I think.

I am just staying with your words about the multi-dimension image , waiting to see if anything comes from them.

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Sat, 30 Dec 2017 #64
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

78:

Clive Elwell wrote:
So how is the whole - and it seems by "the whole" we are referring to the whole of human consciousness, the reservoir - to be seen, as you suggest, Huguette? If "I" am always a fragment - which is how it seems at the moment at least - how can that fragment see the whole? Can it?

Isn't there more to the human being - to being human - than these fragments?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 30 Dec 2017.

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Sat, 30 Dec 2017 #65
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

re 77 etc:

Dan,

There is “something” holy, something sacred which whispers to each of us, isn't there? That “something” can be turned by us - by the intellect - into desire, dissatisfaction, hope, conceit, will, and so on. Or it can be heard, listened to without interpretation.

We are a speck of dust in the vastness and mystery of Life, which we did not create. No matter how we interpret it, there's no escaping this fact. But we seem to willingly “forget” that fact in our everyday lives, dont we? Maybe it is an attempt to escape the fact that we cannot intellectually understand the Whole. Even so, wishful thinking, desire, ambition, etc., cannot reduce the significance of this Vastness to personal fulfilment or cleverness. As I see it, Life demands more of the human being than the mere pursuit of pleasure, than mere personal fulfilment.

For me too, Life is holy, an indivisible whole. Creation, the Vastness, the Wholeness, God - call it by any name - is holy and indivisible. To see that is not a personal achievement, to see that does not absolve us from the responsibility of finding out about right thinking and right action, does it?

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Sat, 30 Dec 2017 #66
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

re 82:

Dan,

To realize that I don’t see the Wholeness, that I don’t see that the observer is the observer, is clarity, isn’t it? That clarity wipes away the known, wipes away the lies, the interpretations and the opinions I had about it. It does not destroy or cut out the known from my brain, but it is denied in looking inward. This is not a high school debate where a “side” is assigned to me and I must support it, whether it makes sense to me or not. This is my life, so I must be clear on what I’m REALLY interested in from the beginning, mustn’t I?

So I can put aside Wholeness etc. and talk about the issues that are actually burning for me, in my life. Knowledge, good science, can explain much but it cannot explain the burning issues satisfactorily, truthfully, fully. So in terms of self-understanding, in terms of the burning issues (if there are burning issues), mustn’t I put aside all knowledge - Thor the god of thunder, the sacrificial virgins, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, and even good science - and consider only what is directly observable?

K also said something like, there is no guru, no expert, no authority who can explain “what is” to you, no one who can tell you what you are and what you are not, no one who can solve problems of relationship, action, meaning for you. Isn’t that clear too?

So am I not left with considering that "something" that whispers and sometimes shouts at me, that flame of discontent, the pain of relationship, the beauty, the joy, the fear, the love, the compassion, the lies, the deceit, and so on?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 30 Dec 2017.

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Sun, 31 Dec 2017 #67
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4656 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Isn't there more to the human being - to being human - than these fragments?

I would not like to state categorically what a human being is. My question was, "can a fragment see the whole?".

You were asking "can I see the whole?", and by whole I think we were both referring to this vast reservoir of human consciousness. I don't think I would be honest if I said I see this reservoir completely, all of it. Indeed, I cannot even imagine what it might mean to see all of it, in one look. I have had certain experiences which have suggested its existence, and I "get the sense" that each fragments arises from this reservoir. But that is not the same as seeing the whole of it. Perhaps "the whole of it" is only an image I have created, in fact.

Can you say what you mean, Huguette, by seeing the whole of this reservoir of human consciousness?

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Sun, 31 Dec 2017 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2341 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
You were asking "can I see the whole?", and by whole I think we were both referring to this vast reservoir of human consciousness. I don't think I would be honest if I said I see this reservoir completely, all of it. Indeed, I cannot even imagine what it might mean to see all of it, in one look.

Can we 'see' it in the sense that 'seeing' it totally brings understanding? To understand what it is. Can I understand what human consciousness is....what 'I' am...I, who am a product of that whole? My thoughts and actions are of it. When 'I' act, it's human consciousness acting, though it feels like it's originating from this sense of a 'me' somewhere inside 'me'. Not sure I'm making any sense. But I was looking into this issue this AM, and I'm looking into it as I type.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 31 Dec 2017.

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Mon, 01 Jan 2018 #69
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

84:

Huguette . wrote:
Isn't there more to the human being - to being human - than these fragments?

Clive Elwell wrote:
I would not like to state categorically what a human being is. My question was, "can a fragment see the whole?".

You were asking "can I see the whole?", and by whole I think we were both referring to this vast reservoir of human consciousness. I don't think I would be honest if I said I see this reservoir completely, all of it.

85:

Tom Paine wrote:
Can we 'see' it in the sense that 'seeing' it totally brings understanding? To understand what it is. Can I understand what human consciousness is....

When I say “there’s more to the human being than the fragments”, I too am not trying to define what the human being is or isn’t. I mean it in the simplest sense that I think everyone can understand - there’s more to being human than thought. Is that a categorical, authoritative, false, presumptuous statement? Aren’t experiencing, awareness, feeling, intelligence, part of being human? Do you see them as products of thought, conditioning, self, time?

So what does it mean to see the whole of consciousness? Doesn't seeing "the whole" of consciousness lie in the quality of the seeing, and not in seeing every single fragment of consciousness? Where it is self who is “seeing”, self determines the quality of the seeing, in that the seeing is distorted by time, ideas, conclusions, beliefs, etc. Distorted perception is incomplete perception, incomplete in that "what is" is not seen clearly, and in that the perception is devoid of awareness.

But where seeing is the action of awareness, then there is seeing of the whole of consciousness even if every single fragment of the whole is not seen. Where there’s awareness of "what is" - fear, conceit, pretense, deceit, anger, pleasure-seeking, and awareness of efforts to avoid facing it all - then understanding of the nature and process of consciousness flowers, doesn’t it? Out of the wholeness of seeing "what is" without distortion, comes the understanding of the nature, process, functioning of consciousness. That is seeing the whole of consciousness at a glance, isn't it? Not sure though.

Tom, is this also what you're saying at #85?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 01 Jan 2018.

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Mon, 01 Jan 2018 #70
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4656 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Aren’t experiencing, awareness, feeling, intelligence, part of being human? Do you see them as products of thought, conditioning, self, time?

I don't see awareness and intelligence as part of conditioning. Not sure how you are using the word "feeling". To feel unhappy about something, for example - is that not part of conditioning?

Huguette . wrote:
So what does it mean to see the whole of consciousness? Doesn't seeing "the whole" of consciousness lie in the quality of the seeing, and not in seeing every single fragment of consciousness?

Yes Huguette, this clarifies things a lot for me. The wholeness is in the quality of the seeing, not in what is seen. Thanks.

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Mon, 01 Jan 2018 #71
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2341 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
Where there’s awareness of "what is" - fear, conceit, pretense, deceit, anger, pleasure-seeking, and awareness of efforts to avoid facing it all - then understanding of the nature and process of consciousness flowers, doesn’t it? Out of the wholeness of seeing "what is" without distortion, comes the understanding of the nature, process, functioning of consciousness.**

That's it in a nutshell, Huguette. That's what I meant by 'seeing' it...seeing/understanding consciousness. You put it much clearer than I did. When you see/understand the part, you understand the whole of consciousness...which is reflected in all the parts. It's all the same consciousness which is manifesting as fear, anger, greed, loneliness, craving, etc. Ah...just saw the QOTD which touches on this subject of consciouness: "As long as self-protective memories exist and give continuity to the "I" process, there cannot be the plenitude of life." (K)

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 01 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 02 Jan 2018 #72
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

79:

Huguette . wrote:
Aren’t experiencing, awareness, feeling, intelligence, part of being human? Do you see them as products of thought, conditioning, self, time?

Clive Elwell wrote:
Not sure how you are using the word "feeling". To feel unhappy about something, for example - is that not part of conditioning?

By feeling I mean touch on the skin (a breeze, a hot iron, a tickle, a slap, a cut), stomach ache, toothache, headache, a sensation of pressure. I also mean fear, anger, jealousy, love, beauty - the physical experiencing of them, not the psychological explanations and ideas about them.

To feel unhappy (or happy) is also a physical FEELING, isn’t it? It is felt physically but it is also explained by “me” - I say I feel unhappy because ....... and I explain why. The explanation is not the feeling described but, in my understanding, the explanation is also a feeling, a cerebral sensation that is experienced as thought. Problems arise where self is emotionally attached to the explanation, it gives value to the explanation, it attributes meaning to the cerebral sensation, to the narrative of the explanation.

I think that the quote you provided at #1 of your thread “QOTD - quite a challenge to understand this” is relevant HERE (sorry to mix up the threads). It clarifies the question of feeling raised here, and it also clarifies its own meaning by being juxtaposed here. Do you think so?

“Every living thing is force, energy, unique to itself. This force or energy creates its own materials which can be called the body, sensation, thought or consciousness. This force or energy in its self-acting development becomes consciousness. From this there arises the "I" process, the "I" movement. Then begins the round of creating its own ignorance. The "I" process begins and continues in identification with its own self-created limitations. The "I" is not a separate entity, as most of us think; it is both the form of energy and energy itself. But that force, in its development, creates its own material, and consciousness is a part of it; and through the senses, consciousness becomes known as the individual. This "I" process is not of the moment, it is without a beginning. But through constant awareness and comprehension, this "I" process can be ended.”

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 02 Jan 2018.

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Wed, 03 Jan 2018 #73
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2341 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
By feeling I mean touch on the skin (a breeze, a hot iron, a tickle, a slap, a cut), stomach ache, toothache, headache, a sensation of pressure. I also mean fear, anger, jealousy, love, beauty - the physical experiencing of them, not the psychological explanations and ideas about them.
>To feel unhappy (or happy) is also a physical FEELING, isn’t it? It is felt physically but it is also explained by “me” -

It's a physical feeling, yes, but it's a product of thought....conditioning... time. The feeling of anger doesn't exist separate from thought.

Problems arise where self is emotionally attached to the explanation, it gives value to the explanation, it attributes meaning to the cerebral sensation, to the narrative of the explanation.

If I have overpowering greed and ambition, for example, that is a problem in and of itself, isn't it? If I get easily angered by something my wife or neighbor says, that again doesn't need any explanation to be problematic, I don't think. I may simply smack my neighbor in the face and justify the action.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 03 Jan 2018.

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Wed, 03 Jan 2018 #74
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
... but it's a product of thought....conditioning... time. The feeling of anger doesn't exist separate from thought.

Yes, Tom. I had said that there’s more to being human than thought: awareness and feeling for example. I was clarifying what I mean by “feeling”.

So yes, there’s a relationship between thought and feeling. There’s a connection between thought which arises, feeling provoked by that thought and conditioning, and thought which explains or analyzes the feeling that was provoked by thought. But the feeling itself is not the thought, and thought itself is not feeling, is it?

Can a feeling be faced, and the associated thought denied or wiped away, released like a balloon - without effort? The thought on its own is not painful. The word is not the thing, the thought is not the pain (or the pleasure). What is painful (or pleasurable) is the actual feeling, isn't it?

Not sure about anything.

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Wed, 03 Jan 2018 #75
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If I have overpowering greed and ambition, for example, that is a problem in and of itself, isn't it? If I get easily angered by something my wife or neighbor says, that again doesn't need any explanation to be problematic, I don't think. I may simply smack my neighbor in the face and justify the action.

Are you saying that desire and anger are seen as obvious problems by everyone? And how does this relate to “I may simply smack my neighbour in the face and justify the action”? Sorry, I just don’t understand. It’s hard to express these things. It’s ok with me though if you don’t want to go into it.

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Wed, 03 Jan 2018 #76
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2341 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
But the feeling itself is not the thought, and thought itself is not feeling, is it?

They can't be separated, can they? The feeling of anger and the thought which provokes it? Aren't they two sides of a coin? Just questioning.

Let it Be

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Wed, 03 Jan 2018 #77
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4656 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
By feeling I mean touch on the skin ( breeze, a hot iron, a tickle, a slap, a cut), stomach ache, toothache, headache, a sensation of pressure. I also mean fear, anger, jealousy, love, beauty - the physical experiencing of them, not the psychological explanations and ideas about them.

I am balancing the words "feeling", "emotion" and "sensation". Is there any real difference? Something is felt, something that is not a symbol, not a representation of something else, as a thought, a word, is.

Huguette . wrote:
the explanation is also a feeling, a cerebral sensation that is experienced as thought.

I have read where K says thought is also sensation (or feeling, I forget), and this has puzzled me. Seems to me that there is always the symbol, the meaning, side by side with the feeling that has become associated with the word. That word, or words, would also include explanations.And a word may have different associated feelings in different contexts.

Is there a thought free of associated feeling? And is there feeling free of associated words?

Huguette . wrote:
It clarifies the question of feeling raised here, and it also clarifies its own meaning by being juxtaposed here. Do you think so?

I have to say that I still do not feel any clarity about that quote, Huguette. If you can say more I would be grateful.

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Wed, 03 Jan 2018 #78
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 639 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But the feeling itself is not the thought, and thought itself is not feeling, is it?

Tom Paine wrote:
They can't be separated, can they? The feeling of anger and the thought which provokes it? Aren't they two sides of a coin? Just questioning.

You can’t take ONLY ONE SIDE of a coin without also taking the other side. You must take both sides or not take the coin. In this sense, it is seen that pleasure and pain are 2 sides of the same coin. You can’t take pleasure without also taking pain. I don’t mean that they must occur simultaneously but they are part of the same process.The process which produces pleasure also inevitably produces pain. Self wants pleasure, but not pain. But there can’t be only pleasure and no pain. That process of conditioning, thought, time, self, and so on, is part of being human, isn’t it?

In “dissecting” self, in examining what self consists of, how it acts, one does see that thought and feeling can’t be separated. The fear, anger, desire, sadness, loneliness, depression and pleasure that self feels consists of both feeling and thought. Thought and feeling are inseparable parts of conditioning: thought evokes feeling and feeling evokes thought.

But feeling is not always associated with thought, with conditioning. There can be feelings without thought playing a part in them - feelings, what is felt. For example, feeling the pain of being burned or cut or of broken bones, feeling nausea, etc., are not feelings which are evoked by thought. They can be exacerbated by thought, but they are not caused by thought. Beauty, compassion and love are feelings (they are felt) which are not put together by thought. These feelings do not arise out of conditioning, do they?

Here we are asking “What does it mean to deny and yet live with what is?” So we see that we cannot deny pain and keep pleasure. Or do we? We see that “what is” is conditioning, thought and feeling, fear, pleasure, anger, attachment, desire, pleasure, time, self and it is also laughter, beauty and love. Doesn’t denying all that mean to deny - wipe away, release - any attempt by thought to control “what is”, to modify it, to keep all or part it or get rid of all or part it? Is that it? I’m not sure.

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-daily-quote/20170208.php?t=What%20is:

A mind that is confused in the false can never find the truth. Therefore, I must understand what is false in my relationships, in my ideas, in the things about me, because to perceive the truth requires the understanding of the false.”

Added: And "understanding the false" sure is arduous, isn't it? :0)

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 03 Jan 2018.

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Wed, 03 Jan 2018 #79
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2341 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
Beauty, compassion and love are feelings (they are felt) which are not put together by thought. These feelings do not arise out of conditioning, do they?

Right, as well as the 'feelings' of being burned or the pain accidentally hitting your thumb with a hammer...or the itch of poison ivy. There was some confusion on my part as to how you and Clive were using the word 'feelings'. I was using it in my posts above to refer to emotions...which are conditioned....of self and time. I 'feel' angry, or you 'hurt my feelings', and so on. Sorry if this is getting too mixed up. We probably should use the word 'emotions' for emotions and 'feelings' for physical sensations of hurt, touch...or the 'feeling' of joy, beauty, compassion, awe....which are not emotions.

Let it Be

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