Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Stillness


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Fri, 02 Mar 2018 #61
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I don’t know what you or I should do, stay or leave.

I am feeling that perhaps I have been inadequate as a moderator, ignoring the sometimes niggling, reactive nature of certain exchanges – at least that is how they seems to me. But I find moderation a challenging job, knowing when it is appropriate to step in, to interfere with what is going on, and when to let things be, hoping that learning, insight, understanding might arise. I also wonder, at times, if I should "give up" - whatever that might mean?

I feel Huguette has expressed things beautifully, movingly, above, and at the moment I have nothing more to say but to echo her words:

I think that none of us see ourselves OR others as clearly as we think we do. Understanding life, self, relationship, action is not easy for anyone, obviously.

If we have the unshakable passion to understand life, self, relationship, action, we MUST face our discomfort as it arises, not turn away from it, no? Not “must” as a moral obligation. “Must” as in .... when I want to learn to swim, I “must” go in the water. Similarly, to learn about my contradictions, conflicts, fears, I must face them as they arise. I can’t face it when I’m feeling at ease. When I’m at ease, what I “face” is merely an abstraction of fear, hurt, sadness, anger, etc.; it’s merely an intellectual exercise of looking at an idea, an image; it's being an armchair warrior. No? There’s no insight in intellectual “understanding”.

It makes no sense to “have” that passion but then put it “on hold” as soon as pain arises, does it? Then what else can that "passion" be but selfish desire, not unshakable passion? No?

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Fri, 02 Mar 2018 #62
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 577 posts in this forum Offline

re 59:

I see it like you do, Clive - "we have to feel what we are feeling. And to do this, we have to cease to condemn what we are feeling". But in this Brave New World, we see medication as a good way to "solve" what we're feeling. You’ve expressed it very well. I have a lot of trouble putting such things into words.

But is there also another reason for saying things like, “feel better soon”, which is that I’m sorry for having hurt you? Or compassion for your pain even if I didn’t cause it? Even if I understand that hurt MUST be faced, that YOU (and I) must face it, it makes me sad (as Wim said) that you’re unhappy, and I naturally want to say something comforting. And it’s not easy to find the right words to say.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2018 #63
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I don’t understand what you mean, Tom. I hope you don’t mind me saying so. What do you mean by sharing and exploring?

I mean that instead of running off and deleting one's account to say what's on one's mind. Share the thoughts that come up whether they're 'right' or 'wrong'. I have no idea what makes Juan run off like he's done a few times now. Maybe he could have shared his feelings before doing so. Sharing whatever he's feeling/thinking. Because I've had some uncomfortable exchanges in the past with Juan and was left feeling, 'what went wrong?' I had no idea where things got 'off the track' and I would have preferred if he had told me what happened. That's what I mean by 'sharing'.

Huguette . wrote:
So forced patience is not patience; and the effort to be patient is not AWARENESS of impatience. Effort is a movement of thought. Awareness is not.

I was simply saying that I had hoped Juan would have been more patient....not that he should make an effort to do so. Perhaps be aware of his impatience or his feeling of 'I'm right' or 'You're wrong'....and express it as it arises... or not. It's up to him obviously. I don't understand why there's a barrier in the communications here at times. Sorry....writing in a hurry....have to make dinner. Will have to look more carefully into what you've written at another time....and what I was trying to say about sharing.

Let it Be

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Fri, 02 Mar 2018 #64
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 577 posts in this forum Offline

#61:

Clive Elwell wrote:
I am feeling that perhaps I have been inadequate as a moderator, ignoring the sometimes niggling, reactive nature of certain exchanges – at least that is how they seems to me. But I find moderation a challenging job, knowing when it is appropriate to step in, to interfere with what is going on, and when to let things be, hoping that learning, insight, understanding might arise. I also wonder, at times, if I should "give up" - whatever that might mean?

As for me, Clive, I think you’re doing a perfect job as moderator and I appreciate it. I don’t mean to embarrass you by saying so. It IS challenging and not always clear what to do. I certainly don’t want to do the job - but SOMEBODY has got to do it.

There are contradictions, ignorance, deceit, and so on, which are easily seen in “others” and not in oneself. That's so for all of us, I think. That’s just inevitable, isn’t it? And this causes conflict. I personally don’t expect there to be NO contradictions or conflict here.

I don’t see that anything “bad” has happened. Any of us might “give up” on the forum and come back or not. If the passion is there, the enquiry into self, into silence, into relationship is kept alive by it, whether it is expressed here or not. The universe is a mystery. Life is a mystery. Maybe it’s plain silly to say these things and … maybe not.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2018 #65
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 577 posts in this forum Offline

re 63:

Tom Paine wrote:
I was simply saying that I had hoped Juan would have been more patient....not that he should make an effort to do so. Perhaps be aware of his impatience or his feeling of 'I'm right' or 'You're wrong'....and express it as it arises... or not. It's up to him obviously. I don't understand why there's a barrier in the communications here at times.

Tom, I do understand what you're saying. Isn't the barrier the "me"? Can a "me" truly communicate with another "me"? Can there be a true meeting of minds, true relationship, between "me" and "you"? We see the difficulty in that, don't we? Can even an undivided mind like K communicate with a divided mind?

As long as I am conflicted inwardly, the "me" is there, isn't it? As long as the "me" is there, I don't know what it means to be in non-conflictual relationship, it seems to me. So is there something we can do here - some sort of experimenting - that can make such relationship happen? Is asking such a question a mistake? Is it thought looking to solve yet another problem? Or can we ask the question and stay with it silently? I don't know.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2018 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Can there be a true meeting of minds, true relationship, between "me" and "you"? We see the difficulty in that, don't we?

Yes. It's more obvious out in the 'real world' of Democrats shouting at Republicans, Israelis vs. Palestinians, husband arguing with wife, but I can see how similar, but more subtle, manifestations of 'me' are in operation here on the forum. A forum dedicated to the teaching of the man who constantly denied all those divisions....pointed out their dangers.

Huguette . wrote:
As long as I am conflicted inwardly, the "me" is there, isn't it? As long as the "me" is there, I don't know what it means to be in non-conflictual relationship, it seems to me.

As long as 'me' is there I can't listen to what you saying free of bias. If I'm distracted by my own problem/s I'm not giving total attention to what you're saying. I listen through the screen of my beliefs, ideas, conclusions, ambitions, desires, which brings about conflict between us, yes. My ideas about the 'teaching' vs your ideas....seems like this is often the case here. And any ideals or beliefs about myself....the so called self image, which can get hurt and try to defend itself by attacking 'you'.

So is there something we can do here - some sort of experimenting - that can make such relationship happen?

I can only deal with division by pointing it out. And by being aware of it as it arises in myself.... or through the words of another. If there were no division at all, there would be nothing at all to discuss here. We could just as well go and join a gardening forum :)

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 02 Mar 2018.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2018 #67
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But is there also another reason for saying things like, “feel better soon”, which is that I’m sorry for having hurt you? Or compassion for your pain even if I didn’t cause it? Even if I understand that hurt MUST be faced, that YOU (and I) must face it, it makes me sad (as Wim said) that you’re unhappy, and I naturally want to say something comforting. And it’s not easy to find the right words to say.

You are right, Huguette, they may be many reasons for saying things, and one needs to be sensitive to be aware of such nuances.

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Sat, 03 Mar 2018 #68
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 577 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
similar, but more subtle, manifestations of 'me' are in operation here on the forum

Tom Paine wrote:
As long as 'me' is there I can't listen to what you saying free of bias

Well put.

Tom Paine wrote:
I can only deal with division by pointing it out.

I’m not sure of what you mean here either.

Do you mean pointing out the personal specifics - what “you” specifically do or have done in a specific instance?

Or do you mean pointing out the workings of the human mind?

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Sat, 03 Mar 2018 #69
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

I can only deal with division by pointing it out.

I’m not sure of what you mean here either.

Not totally sure myself what can be done about division here on the forum. But don't we question, 'Is that a belief?', 'Is that an opinion?', 'Is that a conclusion?' when it appears one of us is just putting forth a belief, and ideal, an intellectual conclusion, etc.? Pointing out a division in our looking...inquiring. Our relationship is polluted if 'I' have an image of 'you' or visa versa....which division seems to go on here on the forums at times. Don't know exactly how that can be addressed however as some of us are probably very attached to the image/s, or totally unaware of them. Of course we all know what the result is when the division here becomes so pronounced that there's personal attacks and name calling. That's when the moderator has to step in and say 'enough is enough' because the discussion has deteriorated to the point where it's become so divided that there's no meaning whatsoever and it's pointless to continue.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 04 Mar 2018.

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Thu, 08 Mar 2018 #70
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 717 posts in this forum Offline

Hi all,

When i friday wanted to respond on Huguette and Tom the site was out of order.

Being away this weekend only discovered this morning it was available again.

In the meantime several scenarios flew through my mind and the only thing what became clear is: whatever the cause of his act was, it was within him.

it is extremely unfortunate that the dialogue was undesirably interrupted.

it all the more shows how important it is to keep communicating about the meaning

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 08 Mar 2018 #71
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
the only thing what became clear is: whatever the cause of his act was, it was within him

Hi Wim,

When you write "his" and "him", are you referring to a particular person?

Surely the cause of All of our actions are within each one of us? In the human mind itself? Surely this is not peculiar to any one person?

Part of the meaning, to me, of the phrase "I am the world" is that there is no movement, no motive, that can be observed in another person that is not in me. How could it be otherwise, given our existence is in that Common Human Consciousness that we have discussed?

In general, doesn't the emphasis on the so-called differences between individuals encourage a sense of separation, division, and ultimately conflict? And is not such an emphasis detrimental to enquiry?

Wim Opdam wrote:
it is extremely unfortunate that the dialogue was undesirably interrupted.

Speaking generally, I think this is a general problem on forums - we don't tend to carry investigation deeply enough. We stop at some concluding point. It might be worth while to ask why this is so.

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #72
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 717 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Part of the meaning, to me, of the phrase "I am the world" is that there is no movement, no motive, that can be observed in another person that is not in me. How could it be otherwise, given our existence is in that Common Human Consciousness that we have discussed?

Yes, this certainly is involved in the meaning of this phrase and clearly formulated.

Clive Elwell wrote:
In general, doesn't the emphasis on the so-called differences between individuals encourage a sense of separation, division, and ultimately conflict? And is not such an emphasis detrimental to enquiry?

Wim Opdam wrote:

it is extremely unfortunate that the dialogue was undesirably interrupted.

Speaking generally, I think this is a general problem on forums - we don't tend to carry investigation deeply enough. We stop at some concluding point. It might be worth while to ask why this is so.

It was not intend to emphasize the differences on the particular but describing the fact of finding it in oneself or should i say ones self ?

For me there is no concluding point, in a sence i understand and also don't understand this developed situation.

There is no borderline between "I" (the psychological) and "i" (the physical) and yet they are distinguishable.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 09 Mar 2018.

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #73
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
For me there is no concluding point,

It is indeed important that there be no conclusions drawn, psychologically. Which means conclusions about ourselves and others. And it is important, is it not, to distinguish between observation and conclusion? Conclusion immediately moves into the past, and its presence distorts the present, whereas observation is always in the now, and has to continually die to itself, to allow fresh observation to flower.

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Sat, 10 Mar 2018 #74
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 717 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
We stop at some concluding point. It might be worth while to ask why this is so.

I like to come back to this sentence because I wondered if some concluding point is a full stop.

for those who are serious about life is there a stop in the investigating ??

perhaps temporarily because of other priorities, but that proves steadily to come back again.

Clive Elwell wrote:
whereas observation is always in the now, and has to continually die to itself, to allow fresh observation to flower.

Is not the observation that ones collocutor is not listening also a temporary stop. ? What I am trying to say is, if there is no hart-feeling of togetherness but 'apartheid' to use that ugly word
And yes this latest never can never be a hart-feeling, so let's say the loss of 'togetherness'.

To me this seems the strenght of K. Speaking, this hart-feeling 'togetherness' continually flowered fresh.

WHILE institutionalized togetherness Leeds to belief, nationalism, etc. Etc...

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 10 Mar 2018 #75
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
for those who are serious about life is there a stop in the investigating ??

Perhaps this phrase from QOTD is relevent to this question:

"Understanding is non-continuous, it is from moment to moment, unresidual".

I would say there are certainly STOPS (note the plural) in investigating. Do not the very limitations of thought impose these stops? By stops I mean discontinuities. Breaks.

And sometimes answers to particular questions appear, do they not? Sometimes one sees what is true. And sees what is false.

But if you are meaning when you use the word "stop", a complete ending to enquiry, I do not see how that is possible. Once the voyage has been completely embarked upon, I cannot see there can be a returning to any port, any harbour. Not that I am advocating a continual verbalisation of questions. The original

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Sat, 10 Mar 2018 #76
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 717 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell quoting K. wrote:
"Understanding is non-continuous, it is from moment to moment, unresidual".

Yes, and when i read that, i realized that also time has nothing to say over understanding, I mean it can happen that even after a while one understand what it was, not as an explanation or an escape but like a bolt of lightning.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Once the voyage has been completely embarked upon, I cannot see there can be a returning to any port, any harbour. Not that I am advocating a continual verbalisation of questions.

NO even K. Took breaks by enjoying and wondering the nature.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sun, 11 Mar 2018 #77
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 717 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Not that I am advocating a continual verbalisation of questions.

I've no idea how it works with verbalisation of answers, but the metafoor of the still clear lake and the disruption of the dialogue seems to have worked somehow.

Questions like: Could there have been waves if the lake was frozen ?
And: is there still a clear vision in/on a frozen lake.?
The absence of warmth and waves seems to have a greath influence !

This ideas floated like autumn leaves through my mind and are more like answers on unsolicited questions.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sun, 11 Mar 2018.

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Sun, 11 Mar 2018 #78
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Questions like: Could there have been waves if the lake was frozen ?

The mind cannot be frozen, can it? Thought/feelings flow like a river, that is their nature, there is no freezing them. That would be death.

The attempt to stop this flow is what belief, conclusion, ideology, is, isn't it? I think K has actually referred to belief as "The frozen thought of man". Ah, just looked it up, the quote is actually:

"Religion is the frozen thought of man out of which they build temples".

More and more I look at beliefs as I meet them in daily life, and more and more they seem an indication of insanity.

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Mon, 12 Mar 2018 #79
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 717 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
More and more I look at beliefs as I meet them in daily life, and more and more they seem an indication of insanity.

The word 'insanity' seemed too heavy to me, but the dictionary helped me to understand by another notion of this word: 'mental alienation'.

Clive Elwell wrote:
The mind cannot be frozen, can it? Thought/feelings flow like a river, that is their nature, there is no freezing them. That would be death.

The attempt to stop this flow is what belief, conclusion, ideology, is, isn't it? I think K has actually referred to belief as "The frozen thought of man". Ah, just looked it up, the quote is actually:

"Religion is the frozen thought of man out of which they build temples".

Every one of us have there own way of expressing and by putting the question:

Wim Opdam wrote:
Questions like: Could there have been waves if the lake was frozen ?

Isn't it clear that fluidity/liquidity is a necessity in the lake?

So in this question the answer is already there and there is no incentive to compare it with what K. Said about it.

Is there actually a difference in what i expressed and what K. expressed ? To me it seems not.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 12 Mar 2018 #80
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

K on stillness again:

The capacity of the mind to be still, which is so essential, is not of the Occident or the Orient, though in the Orient some people may talk about it more. Without this extraordinary stillness of the mind which is not seeking further experience, all our activities, will merely add to the dead centre of accumulation.

Only when the mind is completely still can it know its own movement - and then its movement is immense, incalculable, immeasurable. Then it is possible to have that feeling of something which is beyond time. Then life has quite a different significance, a significance which is not to be found through capacities, gifts, or intellectual gymnastics.

Creative stillness is not the end result of a calculating, disciplined and widely-informed mind. It comes into being only when we understand the falsity of the whole process of endlessly seeking sensation through experience. Without that inward stillness, all our speculations about reality, all the philosophies, the systems of ethics, the religions, have very little significance. It is only the still mind which can know infinity.

Stockholm 1956 Talk 4

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Tue, 13 Mar 2018 #81
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 717 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
K on stillness again:

is this still an inquiry if we will answer each other only with quotes or stories from the past?

stillness is in place.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 13 Mar 2018 #82
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
is this still an inquiry if we will answer each other only with quotes or stories from the past?

I was not actually responding to any post of yours Wim, or any post at all. I came across the above extract, was moved by it, and as it was concerned with stillness, which is the subject of the thread, I posted it here.

I do not see many "stories from the past" posted on this forum. But I myself, in K meetings, tend to find such responses inappropriate. They prove nothing, but only, perhaps, reinforce conclusions.

If there is some specific question you have put that you would like an answer to, please put it again.

Wim Opdam wrote:
stillness is in place.

I am not understanding your words here, Wim.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Tue, 13 Mar 2018.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2018 #83
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

I have a deleted a post here, and asked the writer to rewrite it, if he wishes, without personal references.

Clive, as moderator.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2018 #84
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 717 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I have a deleted a post here, and asked the writer to rewrite it, if he wishes, without personal references.

Clive, as moderator.

I'm sorry to say Clive,
but are you not measuring with two sizes if #55 is allowed and not deleted ??

Clive Elwell wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

stillness is in place.

I am not understanding your words here, Wim.

Various explanations can be given to this, Clive

There is a saying: "Hear, see, and remain silent."
another - often used by my parents - is: "Speaking is silver and Silence is gold."

Hence " stillness is in place. "

so, let me keep silent again !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2018 #85
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4316 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
I'm sorry to say Clive,
but are you not measuring with two sizes if #55 is allowed and not deleted ??

If this discussion is to continue, I am moving it out of the Stillness thread, and starting a new thread which I will call "Wim wanted me to post these PM's"

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