Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Do you give 100% of your energy to change?


Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 155 in total
Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #31
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
And even when one is aware that one is escaping...trying to achieve...one may very well continue along that road until illness or injury intervenes

Does it not depend on what exactly is meant by “seeing” or "being aware"?

It seems to me that one of the fundamentals of K’s teachings is that the seeing of what is false ends that falseness. Would you agree? And so the only problem really is the lack of seeing, the lack of awareness. I have just written a post on this, but not yet posted, it will follow.

It seems to me that K’s talks are basically a ‘movement in seeing’. He may start out from a position very much part of ‘the world’, with all its confusion, but through a process of choiceless awareness of what is/ insight, he emerges at the end of the talk having stepped out of that. While his audience,for the most part, have not actually participated in the process, and so leave empty-handed.

But apart from what K might say – it seems to me that if seeing what is, without escape, does not bring about meaningful change, then we are left with no possibility of such change. I mean we are doomed to this everlasting chaos, this misery. There would be absolutely no ‘way out’.

But as I started out by asking: does it not depend on exactly what is meant by “seeing”, or "being aware"?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #32
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

“What is the nature of thought that it ceases when there is complete attention and when there is no attention it arises” - K

This is so true, is it not? One can observe the truth of it in oneself at any time. It is in the darkness cast by the lack of attention that the confusion of thought starts up. And in the light of awareness (psychological) thought evaporates and all the problems it creates dissolve into nothingness.

If one accepts the truth of this, then it becomes clear that the real issue of life is not the self and its manifestations, not discussion, both inner and outer (I mean discussion within oneself and with others) - these may have a certain significance (K evidently felt so) - but ‘in the end’ the issue is one of awareness, or attention.

And the issue of this thread – which seems to me really a variation of the question “Why don’t we change?”, or “What are the obstacles to change?”, becomes the question “Why are we not aware?”, or “What are the obstacles to awareness?”.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #33
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: It seems to me that one of the fundamentals of K’s teachings is that the seeing of what is false ends that falseness. Would you agree? And so the only problem really is the lack of seeing, the lack of awareness. I have just written a post on this, but not yet posted, it will follow.

Yes, that seems correct. There may be a seeing of the false as false, yet in moments of inattention the false returns, however. Not too many years back my approach to my music ‘career’ (not much of a career actually...only an ambition to have success at it) took a turn....probably due to the kind of awareness we are discussing. I approach it very differently now. It has become more or less simply a source of fun now....like engaging in a sport for fun, rather than having an ambition to become a pro athlete. I make music because I enjoy it...like watching a movie for fun....as we all know K liked to do sometimes in his free time. I’m not even sure I want to succeed at it financially, as that would bring more responsibility and work, managing my income, etc., and I am looking forward to retiring from that kind of thing and enjoying my senior years.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #34
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
And the issue of this thread – which seems to me really a variation of the question “Why don’t we change?”, or “What are the obstacles to change?”, becomes the question “Why are we not aware?”, or “What are the obstacles to awareness?”.

Good points/questions. Glad you put it this way. I will have to let these questions sink in and come back to it later, time permitting.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #35
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 70 posts in this forum Offline

I woke up this morning thinking about this question. Definitely, in my case, desire is an obstacle to awareness. Where desire come from? It is not so clear to me. Will do the same as Tom and come back later.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #36
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1387 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
“What are the obstacles to awareness?”

If you ask this question in the sense of what is standing in the way to 'my' being 'aware' of myself. I would say 'nothing'. There is nothing blocking awareness of myself. Awareness is in, around everything that lives...in every cell of the body. So has the self, the 'me' formed an image of what awareness is? Do I imagine what an 'aware' me would be like, feel like? Is it again the 'desire' by the self to 'attain' this state of awareness, a kind of enlightenment where all my troubles will end, where I will be at peace, where there will be a "silent" mind, etc? If so, hasn't the element of 'time' once again been introduced via thought: "I'm not in this state now but I will be...?" "Desire' is the energy of 'creation', it seems to me, a movement without a direction, or a goal. It is eternal and timeless. When we give it a direction psychologically to be something other than what is, in the present moment, we create a "friction" or resistance to what is actually taking place. As when the self desires 'awareness'.

I just read this in John R's post today of a talk between K and students. The subject here was 'affection' but I think 'awareness' could be substituted:

K "Now, when you said: 'let's see the things that prevent it', that means you are deliberately ( planning to?) cultivate affection. When you say, "I will see what the things are which are blocking me", that is a (roudabout mental ) action in order to get it. Therefore you are trying to cultivate it, aren't you? - only in an obscure way."

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 22 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #37
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
Definitely, in my case, desire is an obstacle to awareness. Where desire come from? It is not so clear to me.

K has often described most minutely where desire comes from. From perception, contact, sensation and desire

An example:

“So what is the origin of desire? We live by sensation Right? We live by sensation. If I observe the whole process of desire in myself I see there is always an object towards which my mind is directed for further sensation. There is perception, contact, sensation and desire and the mind becomes the mechanical instrument of all this process. So sensation becomes monstrously important and its problems overwhelming and if we do not penetrate deeply and comprehend its processes our life will be shallow and utterly vain and miserable ...and the habit of seeking further sensation....and is there an end to sorrow?

However, overwhelmingly for me the origin of desire is not direct perception of the senses, like seeing something, but the memory of something. However, K often has included thought/memory as an organ of perception.

Either way, why should desire overwhelm awareness? Is it that it narrows down our consciousness, makes us focus on one thing? Instead of awareness of our inner and outer surroundings generally, it is as if we are suddenly looking through a long tube, mentally.

Actually I think now I should originally have used the word “attention”, rather than awareness. I think attention, in the sense K used the word, cannot have a focus – and desire is PURE focus, isn’t it?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #38
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
If you ask this question in the sense of what is standing in the way to 'my' being 'aware' of myself. I would say 'nothing'.

Interesting, that “nothing” Dan. I seemed to have an instant flash of the depth what you meant. But I instantly lost it, and now I only have words.

In my post #32 I was not only rerferring only to “awareness of myself”, but awareness through all the senses. As I said above, I should perhaps have used the word “attention”, rather than awareness. In fact this was the word K used in my quote.

So are you saying, Dan, that only the fact that we have an image of what attention/awareness is, that is blocking the real thing? I feel a bit dubious, after all it is a fact that attention is greatly lacking in my day-to-day living. But then I realise that having an image is an extremely powerful thing. It is only an image that blocks relationship with anything.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #39
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Either way, why should desire overwhelm awareness? Is it that it narrows down our consciousness, makes us focus on one thing? Instead of awareness of our inner and outer surroundings generally, it is as if we are suddenly looking through a long tube, mentally.

Actually I think now I should originally have used the word “attention”, rather than awareness. I think attention, in the sense K used the word, cannot have a focus – and desire is PURE focus, isn’t it?

Good point, Clive, in the last sentence. We’re almost always focused on a goal or pleasurable escape. Not just pleasure of course. We’ve all noticed how focused we have to be when repairing an auto, for example, or composing an important business email...doing our taxes...programming a computer. So we’re focused in thought. And thought is based upon memory.....so there is no awareness NOW. I’m wondering now, if at least some of the tasks mentioned can be done with awareness...thought and awareness working together in harmony.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 22 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #40
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: desire is PURE focus, isn’t it?

Yes!

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #41
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 70 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Either way, why should desire overwhelm awareness?

Well, Clive, I can see in myself that the desire to be aware prevents awareness. This happens to me all the time.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #42
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
Clive Elwell wrote:

Either way, why should desire overwhelm awareness?
Well, Clive, I can see in myself that the desire to be aware prevents awareness. This happens to me all the time.

There’s desire for some object or experience, and then all the thoughts concerning how we will achieve or obtain that which we are desiring. So there’s normally a chain of thoughts that follows from a simple desire. All this thinking is obviously not awareness.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #43
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 70 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So there’s normally a chain of thoughts that follows from a simple desire.

Tom, would you call this the movement of thought, that K often refered to?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #44
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1387 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So are you saying, Dan, that only the fact that we have an image of what attention/awareness is, that is blocking the real thing? I feel a bit dubious

Me too Clive. And add 'not knowing'.

This may be all wrong of course

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #45
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

So there’s normally a chain of thoughts that follows from a simple desire.

Jose: Tom, would you call this the movement of thought, that K often referee to?

I don’t recall K using that phrase, but what would you say? Is thought always an expression of desire, or are there other movements as well....related to fear and insecurity...and attempting to gain psychological security....in a relationship or a career, or...?

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #46
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 70 posts in this forum Offline

Very good question,Tom. I Will think about it. We lack attention when thought moves to the past or to the future. This is a fact. K said he was not talking about stopping thought but the movement of thought. I think we should be able to observe the very beginning of one thought in order to understand what is the movement of thought. Have you ever did it?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #47
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 70 posts in this forum Offline

Done it

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #48
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We’ve all noticed how focused we have to be when repairing an auto, for example, or composing an important business email...doing our taxes...programming a computer. So we’re focused in thought. And thought is based upon memory.....so there is no awareness NOW.

But in doing all these things, there has to be awareness now, does there not? To fit a spanner onto a nut, to plant a flower, one has to LOOK, and feel. It seems to me all tasks require a combination of awareness in the moment, and knowledge from memory.

However, tasks can also be done mechanially (like cleaning one’s teeth) and in that there is very little awareness. One can speak mechanically, drive mechanically. At some level there must be an awareness, or potential awareness of one’s surroundings – well, actually, it is a CHANGE in those surroundings that alerts us, that brings us to awareness. Perhaps because it is change that is threatening to the brain's security.

Tom Paine wrote:
I’m wondering now, if at least some of the tasks mentioned can be done with awareness...thought and awareness working together in harmony.

I will stick my neck out – I would be happy to be questioned – and say at a given moment either there is awareness of one’s surroundings, or there is thought. They cannot happen together. What do you say?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #49
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
Well, Clive, I can see in myself that the desire to be aware prevents awareness. This happens to me all the time.

Yes Jose, I was certainly not denying that it happens. I was asking why, what is the mechanism of it.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #50
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Is thought always an expression of desire, or are there other movements as well....

K did say, as was mentioned a while back, that every thought has an objective, is involved in trying to achieve something, to bring something about. I cannot provide a citation, sorry.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #51
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
I think we should be able to observe the very beginning of one thought in order to understand what is the movement of thought. Have you ever done it?

I have not. I have looked at this issue quite a lot. It seems impossible to be aware at the moment of the birth of thought. If this right, it supports the notion that thought is born in unawareness.

Here is a brief quote from the dialogue at Brockwood 1976 often called "The wholeness of life":

Krishnamurti: Conflict. Out of
contradiction there is conflict. Then
I am aware that there are fragments. I
am working in an area of fragments.

DS: Right. But then, yes, and then I
am not aware of the fact that I have
in fact got a centre. That is the self
deception, right there.

Krishnamurti: No, I think – don't you
think, if I may suggest, that where
there is conflict then only you are
aware of a conflict, of contradiction.
That is, one is aware only when there
is conflict. Right? And then the next
awareness, the next movement is...
conflict arises out of fragmentation –
opposing elements, opposing desires,
opposing wishes, opposing thoughts.

Bohm: But are you saying that these
oppose first before one is aware, and
then suddenly you are aware through
the unpleasantness or the pain of the
opposition that the conflict is
unpleasant?

Krishnamurti: Yes, conflict is
unpleasant and therefore one is aware
that...

Bohm: ...that something is wrong.

Krishnamurti: Wrong. Yes.

Bohm: Something is wrong, not just
simply wrong but wrong with the whole
thing.

Krishnamurti: Whole thing, of course.
Sir, after all self consciousness,
when you are aware of yourself only
when there is pain, or intense
pleasure, otherwise you are not aware
of yourself. So fragmentation with its
conflict brings this sense of I am
aware, I am in conflict – otherwise
there is no awareness. I wonder if I
am...

Having quoted K, as I often do, I wonder why I cannot simply look for myself, and discover the truth of the matter for myself? With certainty. But certainty seems to disappear when one tries to express things in words.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 25 Oct 2018 #52
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Asking “what will bring about change in the consciousness of mankind” must rate as one of the most important questions we CAN ask, if not the MOST important.

Oddly, facing the innumerable crises, crises that encompass the collapse of the natural world and of human civilization, does NOT apparently bring about such change, does not seem to increase the urgency with which we approach the issue – if we approach it all. This is very obvious when “looking at the world”, and, if I am honest, when looking at myself. I can get very worked up when reading of the latest atrocity, latest stupidity, latest example of callousness, latest report on anthropogenic collapse of nature, but it soon fades, and one resumes one’s self centred activities. There seems to be something which can only be called blindness in the self that allows this to happen.

Decades ago K said that mankind is going to destroy himself unless there is a fundamental change in consciousness, and that destruction is so much closer now.

Over and over K asked “what will make man change?”, and I get the impression that he genuinely did not know why that change did not happen. (Did his comment “I don’t mind what happens” extend to the collapse of mankind and much of the planet?).

I don’t know the answer, and that state of not knowing seems the only reasonable starting point.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 25 Oct 2018 #53
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: Over and over K asked “what will make man change?”, and I get the impression that he genuinely did not know why that change did not happen

I imagine K was genuinely puzzled. But if we accept at face value what he said about never having had a drop of conflict in his life, then he never was faced with a self that needed to be changed. On top of that, he claimed that no one ‘got it’....no one changed. That leaves us without a clue to the question above. Is there no one free of self who began like the rest of us, with a fully active self? If so perhaps, they can answer. Bernadette Roberts wrote a fascinating book that addresses this head on. And her answer after going through the change/transformation herself, is suffering. It’s out of print I think, but it’s a fascinating read if you can find a used copy.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 25 Oct 2018 #54
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: Over and over K asked “what will make man change?”, and I get the impression that he genuinely did not know why that change did not happen

I imagine K was genuinely puzzled. But if we accept at face value what he said about never having had a drop of conflict in his life, then he never was faced with a self that needed to be changed. On top of that, he claimed that no one ‘got it’....no one changed. That leaves us without a clue to the question above. Is there no one free of self who began like the rest of us, with a fully active self? If so perhaps, they can answer. Bernadette Roberts wrote a fascinating book that addresses this head on. And her answer after going through the change/transformation herself, is suffering. It’s out of print I think, but it’s a fascinating read if you can find a used copy. It’s called ‘the Experience of No Self’

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 25 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 26 Oct 2018 #55
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

I wanted to come back to this briefly to point out that K. at times said that suffering was NOT the way to truth....that suffering leads to more and more escaping....strengthening our attachments and escapes. The greater the suffering, the more we turn to tv for an escape, to sports, overeating, smoking and drinking, etc.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 26 Oct 2018 #56
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I imagine K was genuinely puzzled. But if we accept at face value what he said about never having had a drop of conflict in his life, then he never was faced with a self that needed to be changed.

Yes, this is an interesting point. I also understand him to have said that [when growing up] he was UNABLE to think. I think he said he used to try, but was unable to it. Sounds very odd!

K used to deny (as in "The Ending of Time") that he was a freak (with the implication that his life was unique to him only), but it seems to me the evidence points to him being exactly that.

Tom Paine wrote:
That leaves us without a clue to the question above.

Well, it seems to me that we have a very strong clue. That is, we can look inside ourselves and ask "Why don't I change?". In fact I would say that this is the only truly meaningful thing to do. Not that I accept that there hasn't BEEN change, to some extent. There is a certain sense of changing all the time.

Not that there is anything wrong with looking around us, and asking why the world does not change. But the question hardly ever arises 'out there' - the river of human consciousness flows on and on, with no pause. People are so occupied with solving a myriad of small problems, immediate problems, there is no time, no space to consider the one huge problem of consciousness. There is this huge momentum of the past. Today is a repetition of yesterday. There may be reactions against yesterday, but they are still repetitions.

I will come back to the rest of your mail, Tom.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 26 Oct 2018 #57
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

That leaves us without a clue to the question above.

Clive: Well, it seems to me that we have a very strong clue. That is, we can look inside ourselves and ask "Why don't I change?". In fact I would say that this is the only truly meaningful thing to do.

T: But that’s the intellect asking the question...and expecting that it will find an answer, ‘inside’. We don’t change, I suspect, because we don’t understand ourselves as we actually are....all the contradictions and confusion....the fear and violence. Without understanding THAT, can there be change?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 26 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #58
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
T: But that’s the intellect asking the question...and expecting that it will find an answer, ‘inside’.

No, a question asked deeply enough transcends the intellect, I would say. If it asked with the whole of one's being.

And can one not ask a question without the expectation of an answer? in fact K says a fundamental question is one that does not have an answer

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #59
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

T: But that’s the intellect asking the question...and expecting that it will find an answer, ‘inside’.

No, a question asked deeply enough transcends the intellect, I would say. If it asked with the whole of one's being.

Interesting....not sure about this at all. Will have to look further into it. Have you received an answer to the question posed in this thread..."why don't we/I change?". Perhaps others will comment.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 27 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #60
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
"why don't we/I change?". Perhaps others will comment.

Perhaps a more fundamental question in response to the initial question:

"Do we give 100% of our energy to change?" is: "How do we do that?". Or, "What does it mean to do that?". Can we actually say, or recognise, when we ARE giving our energy to change?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 155 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)