Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Excerpts from "The Question to Life's Answers"


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Wed, 04 Dec 2019 #31
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Man is brutal in part and gentle, sensitive in part. It is what we are. This excerpt by Bohm points at the possible reason:

Gstadt, discussion 5 1965

David Bohm: That [thought without frustration, smooth function, no conflict] would not be enough, because there is an energy which is moving towards something beyond all this. As I see it, this energy, being misunderstood, has been the source of man’s misery ......... because it is a tremendous energy, and therefore if it goes wrong, it must go very badly wrong.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 04 Dec 2019.

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Wed, 04 Dec 2019 #32
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

Dan: t? To observe the activities of the 'I', is effort necessary or is effort actually an activity of the 'I'? (In pursuit of this or that)

I’m really glad you brought up this point Dan. I think it’s important to go into the issue of effort and perhaps I will start a thread on that topic. What you say above struck a chord in me tonight but I’ve been struggling on my iPhone today to type and quote properly and have been having considerable difficulty . Hopefully I’ll get back to this issue tomorrow when I have my laptop or iPad out. It became very clear to me tonight that effort is of the self .,.and bound and limited by the conditioning of the self . So how can one possibly discover anything new through making effort?

Let it Be

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Wed, 04 Dec 2019 #33
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So how can one possibly discover anything new through making effort?

I saw it this morning (rightly or wrongly) that it takes a 'finer' (?) energy to see oneself without judgement, condemnation, comparison. That is the energy you could say of the 'enquiring mind'? The 'concluding mind' is a 'coarser' (?) energy. It makes 'efforts' to get, to become. to achieve, to understand. It springs forth from the past, from a lifetime of experiences, memories, and as I think you are saying, can never see clearly, 'what is'...So we 'need' this finer energy that we are calling passive awareness, choiceless awareness. The 'self' must be seen (known) if there is to be freedom... what in us that is not seen is what binds us, isn't it?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 04 Dec 2019.

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Wed, 04 Dec 2019 #34
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
.So we 'need' this finer energy that we are calling passive awareness, choiceless awareness.

A very apt QOTD today...From Bombay, 5th public talk, 1950:

" Sir, if you are making an effort to hear what I am saying, will you hear? It is only when you are quiet, when you are really silent, that you understand. If you observe closely, listen quietly, then you will hear; but if you strain, struggle to catch everything that is being said, your energy will be dissipated in the strain, in the effort. So, you will not find truth through effort, it does not matter who says it, whether the ancient books, the ancient saints, or the modern ones. Effort is the very denial of understanding; and it is only the quiet mind, the simple mind, the mind that is still, that is not overtaxed by its own efforts - only such a mind shall understand, shall see truth."

Hmmmm....when I first came across K's talks I didn't understand at all....well very little anyway. If I made zero effort to understand, I'd still have had zero understanding. As I said before it was almost like trying to understand Chinese. I had nothing of the 'quiet mind, the simple mind' K speaks of above, so how could I possibly understand a thing he was saying? My mind was full of questions and conclusions and ideals and should's etc. Of course I couldn't listen or understand.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 04 Dec 2019.

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Wed, 04 Dec 2019 #35
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 800 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote at 30:
Can’t we just see he horror if war and say, ‘this is no way to live’? Is the perception of the suffering of our child...any child... a thought or a perception of a fact? When I perceive the fact that my loved one suffers, is it greed to want to find out why? I saw child abuse right in front of me. I want to find out why this exists. Is that greed to say that this is a horror? Or is it a fact...the perception of the horror of child abuse?

What you say is clear. One sees the horrors, one sees one’s child and other children suffering, one sees the pain of the mothers and fathers, of the old, the vulnerable, and so on. One’s whole being feels the pain and sorrow of it, compassion --- and one questions it, one wants it to end.

And along with the suffering, one also sees the other side of the coin - the corruption, the greed, the selfishness, the insensitivity, the brutality, and so on, which are the cause of it. One sees that this has been the way of the world for thousands of years - it is not a new development. One sees that there have been rebels, philosophers, activists, saints, and so on, who have put forth solutions to remedy it. One sees that mankind has tried all these remedies, made all kinds of efforts, all to no avail. One’s whole being rebels against the way of the world. And one absolutely doesn’t know what to do to resolve it - it just goes on.

One comes to realize that there is only one thing that one can do, isn’t there, and that is to find out if one can root out in oneself the cause of these effects - in myself. And one does see the root in oneself, inwardly. Although we may still think that we are (I am) “not as bad”, as selfish, as cruel, as insensitive as the dictators, gangsters, politicians, torturers and “other twisted minds”, we see that it is extraordinarily difficult - seemingly impossible - to bring about ANY true change within oneself. We see that - however much we desire to change - the inner drives and compulsions are not rooted out. We see that the inner drives and compulsions still shape our actions. No?

Can we just see a thing - good, bad, ugly, beautiful - and say nothing --- since it is also understood that “saying something” and acting out of that “something” changes absolutely nothing fundamentally? And if there ARE actions that are not born of conflict that bring some change about, we can still "do it". We don’t have to sit on our hands or refuse to take any action on the grounds that everything is pointless. Isn’t seeing the whole of “what is” inwardly and outwardly, action in itself?

https://jkrishnamurti.org/content/what-signific...:

So far, we have always done something about desire, given it the right channel, the right slant, the right aim, the right end. And if the mind - which is conditioned, which is always thinking in terms of achievement, through training, through education and so on - is no longer trying to shape desire as something apart from itself if the mind is no longer interfering with desire, if I may use that word, then what is wrong with desire? Then, is it the thing we have always known as desire? Please, sirs, go along with it, come with me.
You see, we have always thought of desire in terms of fulfilment, achieving, gaining, getting rich, inwardly or outwardly, in terms of avoidance, in terms of `the more'. And when you see all that, and put it away, then the feeling, which we have so far called desire, has a totally different meaning, has it not?
Then you can see a beautiful car, a lovely house, a lovely dress without any reaction of wanting, identifying.
You know the whole social approach to existence in which you have been brought up, educated since childhood; all the ideation, the search for fulfilment, that you must be better than the next man and so on. When you see the whole content of this conflict, and when it has fallen away from you from within, dropped from your hand, then is desire that which it previously was?
….. if you could leave desire alone, either to wither away - just leave it alone - that is the very essence of a mind which is not in conflict.

In understanding desire, doesn’t one also understand effort, which you and Dan are now touching upon?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 04 Dec 2019.

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Wed, 04 Dec 2019 #36
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
And along with the suffering, one also sees the other side of the coin - the corruption, the greed, the selfishness, the insensitivity, the brutality, and so on, which are the cause of it.

This was a big insight for me to see at one point in my life. I realized my own self centered activities were part of the problem....and this self concern...self absorption made me insensitive to the pain of others. Like I described a couple of weeks ago, I could be face to face with a lost, miserable, homeless person, and not feel anything deeply because I was so used to thinking of my own fulfillment or my own problems that I had a wall up separating myself from others. So the homelessness and the misery continues because I/we don't feel...are insensitive....are self centered. And this issue is of course part of what we've been discussing in this thread about 'the precipice'.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 04 Dec 2019.

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Wed, 04 Dec 2019 #37
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Can we just see a thing - good, bad, ugly, beautiful - and say nothing --- since it is also understood that “saying something” and acting out of that “something” changes absolutely nothing fundamentally?

To not judge outwardly or inwardly is freedom, isn't it? It doesn't mean that one is insensitive, on the contrary, it takes a much finer sensitivity , I'd say, than the energy of judgement or condemnation...it also doesn't mean that by not judging that one approves. Approval and its opposite disapproval are judgements. The reason behind not-judging is that one's judgement is based on the past. It is subjective. and energy-wise, it is static, fixed, a 'conclusion', isn't it? There is an 'effort' in holding on to it, nourishing it. Why? Because when I hold an opinion it gives a kind of substance to me. And we have been brought up to have opinions, points of view, etc.. It is liberating to realize that one knows nothing about all this. Again it doesn't mean that you don't act in the face of the heart-sick feelings that Tom was relating about his environment. But free of the judgment about the way one believes 'things' should be. As you say it has been this way and more chaotic, more brutal, more violent for thousands of years...ones judgement, condemnation of it won't change that at all but it will trap you in your own judgement.

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Thu, 05 Dec 2019 #38
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
It springs forth from the past, from a lifetime of experiences, memories, and as I think you are saying, can never see clearly, 'what is'.

Because ‘what is’ is always new....and effort springs from the old. What I’m making effort towards is always based upon some idea or ideal which is in contradiction to what is. From K’s obituary....oh, damn....the image doesn’t show up completely. But the article mentions his famous statement “Truth is a pathless land” and that touches on what we’ve been discussing about making an effort to achieve or attain.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Gpx6-L3letliNz...

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 05 Dec 2019.

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Thu, 05 Dec 2019 #39
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5551 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But we don’t normally observe...we react constantly.

and

And the reaction is simply another thought....with no ‘re-actor’

.

Huguette . wrote:
Can we just see a thing - good, bad, ugly, beautiful - and say nothing --- since it is also understood that “saying something” and acting out of that “something” changes absolutely nothing fundamentally?

This process of reaction must end. And "I" cannot end it, since I am only another reaction. Yet it must end, it is the basic human challenge, the ending of the self. Surely nothing else will take us from the edge of the precipice?

It can only end in me, it is no use looking for it to end elsewhere, in anyone else. No use in joining organisations to end it. It has to end in all the little things of my life, in my relationships.

But I do not know if it CAN end. I see it implies the ending of me, so no action, in the conventional sense, can possibly end it. Is this the "impossible question" that must be held?

Only negation can answer this question. Infinite negation.

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Thu, 05 Dec 2019 #40
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5551 posts in this forum Offline

Another extract from Steven Harrison's "The Question to Life's Answers":

As long as we believe that we will find something to fill our emptiness and quench our pain, explain the paradox of life and assuage its vagaries, give us substance and meaning, we will fill our days with the quixotic spiritual search. This relationship to life may have the trappings of the spiritual, but is essentially self-centered. It is not the search for the dissolution o the self or even the integration of the self, but the expression of narcissism in its most duplicitous form.

Religious, philosophical, and spiritual systems suggest that we must go through some process, some systematic search, some basic preparation. But they are all built upon a false premise: that we must do something to discover the timeless now. There is no lack of access to the immediate moment. No preparation needed to be where we are – in that present. In the moment there is no “me” to be found.

The self is constructed out of thoughts strung like beads on the string of time – a sense of past and future, memory, and anticipation. But thought, time, and self are entirely conceptual. We search for resolution within a conceptual world in which there is no actual resolution. There are just the concepts of searching and searcher, and the concept that the searcher finds meaning and purpose through searching.

This search is in vain. The searcher, which is the core sense of self, is both the problem we seek to solve and the problem that searches for the solution.This fundamental realization brings the spiritual life as we know it to a screeching halt. It is over. There is nothing to do because there is no doer. There is nothing to resolve, nothing to fill, nothing to fix.

But this is not the end; it is the beginning. Coming to the end of the spiritual search is the end of spirituality and the beginning of spirit-actuality. Spirit-actuality is not the expression of our need for something, the search for something, or the absence of something. It is the actuality of spirit, the articulation of what life brings to us, the exploration of unity, in which we are at once a part and the whole. The perspective has changed from the “me” looking for resolution to a “me” turned inside out and upside down – “we” – consciousness peering through the eyes of “me.”


  • page 51

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #41
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

Clive: And "I" cannot end it, since I am only another reaction. Yet it must end, it is the basic human challenge, the ending of the self. Surely nothing else will take us from the edge of the precipice?

And effort will not end it as we were discussing recently. Effort is more ‘me’. So can we do absolutely nothing? If we discard effort we can do nothing at all about the crisis right? Not even thinking about the problem...the crisis ...because thinking is more ‘me’...more conclusions...more knowledge...more division. Can we Stay with not knowing anything...not concluding anything? Knowing that it’s ‘me’ that is perpetuating the crisis....my efforts...my thinking...my knowledge (psychologically)...my fear? Just questioning here...

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 06 Dec 2019.

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #42
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Can we Stay with not knowing anything...not concluding anything? Knowing that it’s ‘me’ that is perpetuating the crisis....my efforts...my thinking...my knowledge (psychologically)...my fear? Just questioning here...

Isn't the "my" already a conclusion?

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #43
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

Not sure I get your point Dan. Can you elaborate? Are you saying we can forget the 'my' and just say that it's human consciousness that's behind the crisis?

Let it Be

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #44
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Are you saying we can forget the 'my' and just say that it's human consciousness that's behind the crisis?

Maybe. It struck me that the personal "my" somehow didn't fit...but I can't really elaborate.

But what you say sounds right, that the human 'problem' is shared by all of us: the fear, the loneliness, etc....the 'dominance' of psychological thought, and a point that Huguette brought in: desire. There is this desire, no matter how subtle, that things should 'get better', isn't there? That I should get better, smarter, wiser, happier, etc, etc. But it is a 'resistance' to 'whatever is'. A form of 'becoming' that is there in the background as a 'judgement' of 'what is', if you see what I'm trying to say. A dissatisfaction ( or satisfaction ) with the perception of what 'I am' and what the 'world' is?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 06 Dec 2019.

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #45
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
There is this desire, no matter how subtle, that things should 'get better', isn't there? That I should get better, smarter, wiser, happier, etc, etc.

Of course...it a common feature in human consciousness. We all (unless we’re total narcissists like mr trump) see that things as they are are not acceptable...the wars, violent crime, addictions, the extremes of wealth and poverty, the environmental destruction.

But it is a 'resistance' to 'whatever is'.

A resistance to violence and greed and war? Not sure I’d call it a resistance. It’s a reaction yes. And also I see the ugliness with my own eyes, no? As I described the other day...the child abuse or homeless beggar...the friend who OD’s on drugs. Are you saying that we resist seeing that? Often we turn away, yes. Change the channel when we see something ugly on the tv news. But we were discussing observing the crisis in ourselves. Are you saying that we resist that? We turn away from facing ourselves ...looking at ourselves....as we are? That there’s resistance to looking?

That I should get better, smarter, wiser, happier, etc, etc. But it is a 'resistance' to 'whatever is'.

A resistance to seeing ourselves as we are? Is that what you’re getting at?

A form of 'becoming' that is there in the background as a 'judgement' of 'what is', if you see what I'm trying to say. A dissatisfaction ( or satisfaction ) with the perception of what 'I am'?

I’m unhappy and I want to be happy. I can’t face my deep unhappiness....observe it ...because I resist it. Is that it?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 06 Dec 2019.

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #46
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
A resistance to seeing ourselves as we are? Is that what you’re getting at?

Well yes, that seems pretty clear. Observing myself when I'm 'attentive' isn't a 'problem'...the 'resistance' seems to be observing myself when I'm 'inattentive'. Why is that?

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #47
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
Why is that?

Why am I inattentive? If I’m reacting I obviously can’t be attentive. If I’m condemning or judging or justifying I’m not attentive....I’m thinking. So I resist what is because I’ve been told what is (what I am) is wrong or weak, or that I’m inferior to the Christian ideal or I should be enlightened or happy or whatever.

You wrote above: “But it is a 'resistance' to 'whatever is'. A form of 'becoming' that is there in the background as a 'judgement' of 'what is', if you see what I'm trying to say. A dissatisfaction ( or satisfaction ) with the perception of what 'I am' and what the 'world' is?”

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 06 Dec 2019.

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #48
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why am I inattentive?

No, why isn't there observation of myself when I'm inattentive? Not just when I'm attentive. Wouldn't it seem that if there was true choiceless awareness that it would operate whether I was attentive or inattentive? But there only seems to be this 'awareness' when I'm 'attentive'. (I just found this under ('inattention')Saanen 4th pub. talk 3 Aug. 1974:

K.: One minute I am very attentive, I see everything very clearly, I have no conflict, there is a sense of a great thing, you know, to be completely attentive, there is no problem, there is nothing. And that attention goes away, and I suddenly find myself that I am inattentive, I have lost the quality of clarity, and then I say, "How am I to recapture that attention?" And I struggle, and I ask questions, and I get miserable because I can't get that attention. So I am saying, what is important is not the understanding of attention for the moment, but the understanding of inattention. Right? That's simple enough, sir. What is inattention, why is the mind inattentive?

Q: It seems that thought causes inattention.

K: So you are saying, the operation of thought may cause inattention, is that it? Are you sure what you are saying, sir, or is it just a guess? Don't let us guess at this, it is not a guessing game. I want to find out the importance of inattention - please listen - the importance of inattention, and the importance of attention. Right? Inattention may be the mind needs rest, not that heightened energetic tremendous attention. And therefore it says, 'Let me have a few minutes'. But in those few minutes - just listen to it - in those few minutes any action becomes corrupting action. You understand what I am saying? I wish you would come with me quickly, I am racing and you are not.

Look: I am attentive for one minute, and there, there is no border, there is no time, there is no me, there is no problem, the whole energy is involved in that attention, it is a heightened attention, energy. That's for the mind a tremendous movement. Then it gets tired and moves to inattention. Now in that state of inattention any action, any action, must be conditioning. Right? You understand? Look: I am attending, in that state of attention I can do things without effort, without thought, you know, do things. That's real creativeness - we won't go into that. And in the state of inattention action has to go on, I have to meet a friend, I am bored with that, there action has to happen. At the moment of action, if I am aware, inattention is not. I wonder if you are following all this. You understand my question, sir? The moment the mind is aware that it is inattentive there is attention - not that we must maintain attention. I wonder if you understand this.

So inattention is part of attention. Got it? Not, from inattention go to attention. You know, sir, meditation is total attention in which concentration, which has a motive, and therefore an end, doesn't exist at all. Are you following all this? And in meditation there can be inattention - you understand? Oh, do follow this. Please, don't agree with me, I don't think you follow what I am saying because it is really quite complex this thing. I mustn't discuss meditation because this is not the moment, perhaps we can do it tomorrow, if you want it.

What I am pointing out is, in the state of attention, state, it is a movement, it is not a dead thing, it is a movement of attention, not the movement of time - the movement of time is concentration - in that quality of attention there is no time, there is no border. You understand border? A fixation. Because there is no centre and therefore no circumference. That is attention. Now in that attention why shouldn't there be inattention? You follow? It is within the whole area, I don't separate inattention from attention. I wonder if you get this. It's only when inattention says, "By Jove, I must leave this and capture that", then you separate inattention from attention.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 06 Dec 2019.

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #49
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

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Tom Paine wrote:

Why am I inattentive?

Dan : No, why isn't there observation of myself when I'm inattentive?

By definition, if I’m inattentive I’m thinking or daydreaming not observing. Are you suggesting that as I’m daydreaming about what I’m going to have for dinner tonight that I can be attentive to the fact I’m daydreaming?

Let it Be

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #50
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5551 posts in this forum Offline

In the above discussion, and in the extract from K, could anyone explain the difference between "attention" and "awareness"? Between to attend and to be aware?

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #51
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5551 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
This search is in vain. The searcher, which is the core sense of self, is both the problem we seek to solve and the problem that searches for the solution.This fundamental realization brings the spiritual life as we know it to a screeching halt. It is over.

I was pondering that phrase “comes to a screeching halt”. Maybe Harrison was being poetic, or maybe this was his actual experience. Maybe there was a sudden insight that instantly and permanently changed his life – such a thing is an accepted idea in ‘the religious search’. But it may be a myth.

And if change does come this way, what is the meaning of “arduous work” in the process of self-discovery? The arduous work that K talks of?

What is the experience of others in this area? Do you feel there was a moment, or there were moments, when suddenly there was a great insight? Or, (and this is not the same as insight perhaps) suddenly one was living in a different world, if I may use that phrase? Or is it that some change of perception has crept up on one, gradually, perhaps imperceptibly?

Or perhaps to talk about change is illusion anyway? Just a projection of thought, and in that projection there is contained the illusion of comparison – I was this, and now I am that? It seems there is a paradox in this, a form of Zeno’s paradox. It seems clear that the self itself cannot change – the self is the self is the self.......... Hmm, I say this, but pretty much the whole of society is based on the idea of the self becoming somehow “better”. I can understand change, perhaps, in the sense that the action of the self becomes ...... somehow weaker, less persistent, less noisy

I am pondering my own experiences in this matter, but first I would appreciate to hear of “the experiences”, the perceptions, of others.

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Fri, 06 Dec 2019 #52
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Are you suggesting that as I’m daydreaming about what I’m going to have for dinner tonight that I can be attentive to the fact I’m daydreaming?

Not me. Isn't that what K. is saying? Be aware of the inattention as well as the attention.

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Sat, 07 Dec 2019 #53
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
And if change does come this way, what is the meaning of “arduous work” in the process of self-discovery? The arduous work that K talks of?

Could it be the ongoing realization that one is totally 'conditioned'. That one is seeing the world through this conditioning which gives the sense that one is an 'individual' separate from all other 'individuals'? That as K. says, one may have a name, a bank account, a house, possessions, etc but that is not what one is? Is the 'arduousness' in the remembering that one is conditioned?

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Sat, 07 Dec 2019 #54
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

I was pondering that phrase “comes to a screeching halt”. Maybe Harrison was being poetic, or maybe this was his actual experience. Maybe there was a sudden insight that instantly and permanently changed his life – such a thing is an accepted idea in ‘the religious search’. But it may be a myth.

And if change does come this way, what is the meaning of “arduous work” in the process of self-discovery? The arduous work that K talks of?

What is the experience of others in this area? Do you feel there was a moment, or there were moments, when suddenly there was a great insight? Or, (and this is not the same as insight perhaps) suddenly one was living in a different world, if I may use that phrase? Or is it that some change of perception has crept up on one, gradually, perhaps imperceptibly?

I guess we’d all like our problems to come to a screeching halt, right? But let’s not take him as an authority here, or try to emulate his experience. Not saying you’re doing that...you’re questioning. But that’s probably a common desire of most of us who read K ...or anyone who writes about a change or revolution in consciousness. I did a quick google search and found that this author is the same guy who wrote “Doing Nothing” a book I read in part over 20 years ago. At the time I found it very helpful. I’ll have to take some time to go further into your excerpt from his new book....only glanced at it quickly since I’ve not been looking for more stuff to fill my brain with ;) I find our discussions here have been more than enough to keep me inquiring and doing the ‘arduous work’. Will come back to this later...getting started on a busy day here.

Interesting excerpt from your excerpt from the book:

“But thought, time, and self are entirely conceptual. We search for resolution within a conceptual world in which there is no actual resolution. There are just the concepts of searching and searcher, and the concept that the searcher finds meaning”

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 07 Dec 2019.

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Sat, 07 Dec 2019 #55
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1651 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I am pondering my own experiences in this matter, but first I would appreciate to hear of “the experiences”, the perceptions, of others.

We don't see ourselves as we actually are because of the images that we have of ourself. We don't see ourselves 'as if for the first time' because we think that we know who we are. Insight is the realizing that we don't know, we just think that we do. So there is no 'staying with' because we think that we know what we will see...that there is nothing new there. But it is always 'new'. To realize that no-one is actually in control can be disturbing to the 'peace of mind' that one is constantly seeking.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 07 Dec 2019.

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Sat, 07 Dec 2019 #56
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

“ The transformation of the human psyche, the human selfishness, the human violence, is not through silence”. Great video....amazing... such clarity, and he was like 90 years old.

https://youtu.be/f6PFUU5iuZE

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 07 Dec 2019.

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Sat, 07 Dec 2019 #57
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5551 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote #54:
I’ll have to take some time to go further into your excerpt from his new book....only glanced at it quickly since I’ve not been looking for more stuff to fill my brain with ;)

He is certainly not writing stuff to fill people's brains with! He is pointing out the trouble with that approach, and that the so-called "spiritual search" is only more brain-filling stuff, like all "stuff". As you can see from the excerpts.

He is resonating with what I have been feeling for some time, that thought is only thought is only thought ..... no matter what thought says. (of course thought must have its place)

I find Harrison is well worth reading. I don't think I've come across anything that contradicts K, but he does have refreshingly new ways of putting things. I have just started to read "Doing Nothing".

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Sun, 08 Dec 2019 #58
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

“It’s hard work to realize one’s mind is petty, small. It’s hard work to observe this fact, to face it, to grapple with it, not trying to escape from it. It’s much harder work than going to your office or passing an examination, because it demands constant alertness, constant awareness, watching every minute to see your petty little actions.” From “A Crisis in Consciousness”. https://www.google.com/search?q=books+like+Cris...:

Let it Be

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Sun, 08 Dec 2019 #59
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5551 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote (k) :
We search for resolution within a conceptual world in which there is no actual resolution. There are just the concepts of searching and searcher, and the concept that the searcher finds meaning”

I remember speaking to someone who said the spiritual journey is like climbing a mountain. But aren't both the mountain and the mountaineer both creations of thought? So the idea of climbing, eventually reaching, is just a meaningless activity, an illusion, is it not?

Thought objects to this. It does not like its comfort of time, of gradually attaing, taken away. It feels so lost then.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Sun, 08 Dec 2019.

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Sun, 08 Dec 2019 #60
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3103 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
I find Harrison is well worth reading. I don't think I've come across anything that contradicts K, but he does have refreshingly new ways of putting things.

“There is nothing to do because there is no doer. There is nothing to resolve, nothing to fill, nothing to fix.” Steven Harrison

This seems to contradict the quote from K that I posted above in #58 And not just grappling with one’s pettiness...but one’s violence...greed...fear...anger.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 08 Dec 2019.

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