Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The known and the unknown


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Thu, 26 Mar 2020 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5778 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred was writing about the known and the known. He wrote, in the thread "discussions on in the light of silence all problems are dissolved" :

For me there is a basic “mistake” in our way of thinking. Usually we think there is the known and at the best beyond the known is the unknown. That means the unknown fills up the known. Our actions are consciously driven by the known.

When we are assuming that the basis is the unknown, then it is different. The known is always embedded in the unknown. Now we are able to question whatever our fixed thought-system is telling us. Then to find out what that is makes sense. Each single thought is surrounded by not knowing. To get in touch with the base of our life we have to be aware which fixed thought process is acting. Choiceless awareness suddenly is an option. But the only way to experience it is to try it.

This has given rise to a certain amount of discussion and reflection, and I thought I would start a new thread. Here is something from K. He was addressing the question of death:

Death,the state of non continuity, the state of rebirth, is the unknown. Death is the unknown. The mind, which is the result of continuity, cannot know the unknown. it can know only the known. It can only act and have it's being in the known, which is continuous. So the known is in fear of the unknown. The known can never know the unknown, and so death remains the mystery. If there is an ending for moment-to-moment, from day to day, in this ending the unknown comes into being

Bombay, 14th March, 1948

There is something arising in consciousness, from time to time, that is almost impossible to put into words - to try to turn the unknown into the known. But ...... a sense of death being somehow 'around'. And letting this dying into consciousness is also the dissolution of all problems.

Any comments?

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Thu, 26 Mar 2020 #2
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3319 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:

Manfred: he known is always embedded in the unknown. Now we are able to question whatever our fixed thought-system is telling us. Then to find out what that is makes sense. Each single thought is surrounded by not knowing. To get in touch with the base of our life we have to be aware which fixed thought process is acting. Choiceless awareness suddenly is an option. But the only way to experience it is to try it.

This is a good post by Manfred. It’s hard to put into words but I think it needs to be seen that the known (psychological)! is our prison. That Truth is in a totally different dimension .... the unknown and timeless....and to live there is total renewal...the total emptying of consciousness.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 26 Mar 2020.

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Thu, 26 Mar 2020 #3
Thumb_avatar Manfred Kritzler Germany 101 posts in this forum Offline

Clive:

If there is an ending for moment-to-moment, from day to day, in this ending the unknown comes into being. Krishnamurti
———————-
Manfred: Yes Being in „what is“ opens the door to the unknown. It doesn’t matter what it is. Thought, feelings, good or bad intentions or being occupied in the moment with the past or future. The seeing of the known inside of us without running away or trying to change it opens the unknown. The unknown is always present, but we cannot know it, because our mind has no access to it.

Staying with observing the known and being aware that the known is always emanating out of the unknown (or being born in it) means that both, the known and the unknown are present at the same moment.

I have no idea if this is clearly expressed. It is so difficult to put it in words.

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Fri, 27 Mar 2020 #4
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5778 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
Yes Being in „what is“ opens the door to the unknown. It doesn’t matter what it is.

Does this "being in" mean that there is no division between the thinker and the thought, the experiencer and the experienced? Does it mean experiencing suffering without division, without separation? Suffering, fear, dislike, whatever - as you say it doesn't matter what it is. It is the state of experiencing, that is significant, no?

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
. The seeing of the known inside of us without running away or trying to change it opens the unknown.

Why? I am trying to look at this afresh, and failing to do so at the moment. "Trying" perhaps is the problem, but why does the seeing of the known open the door to the unknown? I am not necessarily asking for an intellectual explanation; I need to see this, for myself. Do you see it with crystal clarity? Can you help me to see it?

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
Staying with observing the known and being aware that the known is always emanating out of the unknown (or being born in it) means that both, the known and the unknown are present at the same moment.

I have no idea if this is clearly expressed. It is so difficult to put it in words.

Well, thank you for trying. But the perception of the known and the unknown being present at the same moment eludes me.

I continue this exploration in my response to Tom below.

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Fri, 27 Mar 2020 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5778 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
This is a good post by Manfred. It’s hard to put into words but I think it needs to be seen that the known (psychological)! is our prison. That Truth is in a totally different dimension .... the unknown and timeless....and to live there is total renewal...the total emptying of consciousness.

Yes, the known is our prison. Trapped in that prison, it is incapable of receiving anything new, isn't it? Because if anything new, unknown, appears, it is immediately processed, interpreted, by the known, and so the unknown is reduced to what is known already.

From this, it may be concluded that the situation is hopeless, that there is no possibility of change, no way out of the prison. But here is K in “Commentaries On Living 1”, chapter 18, “The known and the unknown”

The mind moves from the known to the known, and it cannot reach out into the unknown. You cannot think of something you do not know; it is impossible. What you think about comes out of the known, the past, whether that past be remote, or the second that has just gone by. This past is thought, shaped and conditioned by many influences, modifying itself according to circumstances and pressures, but ever remaining a process of time. Thought can only deny or assert it cannot discover or search out the new. Thought cannot come upon the new. but when thought is silent, then there may be the new - which is immediately transformed into the old, into the experienced, by thought. Thought is ever shaping, modifying, colouring according to a pattern of experience. The function of thought is to communicate but not to be in the state of experiencing. When experiencing ceases, then thought takes over and terms it within the category of the known. Thought cannot penetrate into the unknown, and so it can never discover or experience reality.

So once again, we are pointed towards silence. K continues:

Disciplines, renunciations, detachment, rituals, the practice of virtue - all these, however noble, are the process of thought; and thought can only work towards an end, towards an achievement, which is ever the known. Achievement is security, the self-protective certainty of the known. To seek security in that which is nameless is to deny it. The security that may be found is only in the projection of the past, of the known. For this reason the mind must be entirely and deeply silent; but this silence cannot be purchased through sacrifice, sublimation or suppression. This silence comes when the mind is no longer seeking, no longer caught in the process of becoming. This silence is not cumulative, it may not be built up through practice. The silence must be as unknown to the mind as the timeless; for if the mind experiences the silence, then there is the experiencer who is the result of past experiences, who is cognizant of a past silence; and what is experienced by the experiencer is merely a self-projected repetition. The mind can never experience the new, and so the mind must be utterly still.

And finally:

The mind can be still only when it is not experiencing, that is, when it is not terming or naming, recording or storing up in memory. This naming and recording is a constant process of the different layers of consciousness, not merely of the upper mind. But when the superficial mind is quiet, the deeper mind can offer up its intimations. When the whole consciousness is silent and tranquil, free from all becoming, which is spontaneity then only does the immeasurable come into being. The desire to main- tain this freedom gives continuity to the memory of the becomer, which is a hindrance to reality. Reality has no continuity; it is from moment to moment, ever new, ever fresh. What has continuity can never be creative.

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Fri, 27 Mar 2020 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3319 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: Yes, the known is our prison. Trapped in that prison, it is incapable of receiving anything new, isn't it? Because if anything new, unknown, appears, it is immediately processed, interpreted, by the known, and so the unknown is reduced to what is known already.

From this, it may be concluded that the situation is hopeless, that there is no possibility of change, no way out of the prison

It only seems hopeless to the mind...to thought...to the known...the prison...’me’....which is fear. Desire to get out...to escape(to what?)... creates fear of being stuck inside. It’s all an action of thought...the prison.

Let it Be

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Sat, 28 Mar 2020 #7
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1764 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
It only seems hopeless to the mind...to thought...to the known...the prison...’me’....which is fear. Desire to get out...to escape(to what?)... creates fear of being stuck inside. It’s all an action of thought...the prison.

A lot of good things have been said. We certainly don't grasp the totality of thought's reign. Someone mentioned the "triviality" of our lives in relation to the danger of the virus...the "triviality", is this 'self': with its desires, its achievements, its attachments, its will, its 'time', in short this 'center'. But...here we are living in the midst of a miracle...a mystery, and what is our reaction... as opposed to every other living creature here... we "lean against each other and groan".

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2 days ago #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3319 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
the "triviality", is this 'self': with its desires, its achievements, its attachments, its will, its 'time', in short this 'center'.

Yes, trivial and mostly meaningless...going to the mall shopping because one is bored...changing one’s hair style or color...sitting in front of the TV with beer and pizza watching football every Sunday ...accumulating more stuff to fill up the emptiness....gorging on junk food with the kids at McDonald’s on Sat night....and so on. And K talks of the ‘immensity’ that we will probably never ever know.

Let it Be

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1 day ago #9
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5778 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Yes, trivial and mostly meaningless...going to the mall shopping because one is bored...changing one’s hair style or color...sitting in front of the TV with beer and pizza watching football every Sunday ...accumulating more stuff to fill up the emptiness....gorging on junk food with the kids at McDonald’s on Sat night....and so on.

Yes, these things are easy to see. And probably we all have our own versions of trivial pursuits.

Yet while our attempts (the attempts of the human mind) to 'rise above' triviality may be earnest and appear to be serious, non-trivial, may I suggest that all such activity is still in the field of triviality. When the mind begins to glimpse its triviality, does it not then attempt to escape from it? And some of those escapes, like organised religion, social work, so-called spiritual pursuits, are respected and considered very serious, are not all attempts to escape from what is, trivial? Do not such attempts originate in a mind that is itself trivial?

Why do I suggest this? One reason is that the mind is concerned overwhelmingly with itself, its own concerns, its own advancement, its own advantage. This can go on for ever,without even bringing about a good society, and certainly with producing any fundamental change in long-suffering mankind.

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1 day ago #10
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5778 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
But...here we are living in the midst of a miracle...a mystery,

What do you consider is the nature of this miracle, this mystery, Dan? Can it be described at all?

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18 hours ago #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3319 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: Do not such attempts originate in a mind that is itself trivial?

Yes...I think so.

Why do I suggest this? One reason is that the mind is concerned overwhelmingly with itself, its own concerns, its own advancement, its own advantage.

And it’s very limited...focused on a little fragment ....not global. But when we try to consider something beyond our little selves, it’s the trivial, limited, mind that does so.

This can go on for ever,without even bringing about a good society, and certainly with producing any fundamental change in long-suffering mankind.

Indeed it had gone on for thousands of years

Let it Be

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16 hours ago #12
Thumb_avatar Manfred Kritzler Germany 101 posts in this forum Offline

Clive:

Why? I am trying to look at this afresh, and failing to do so at the moment. "Trying" perhaps is the problem, but why does the seeing of the known open the door to the unknown? I am not necessarily asking for an intellectual explanation; I need to see this, for myself. Do you see it with crystal clarity? Can you help me to see it?
——————-
Manfred:,For me it is rather clear that seeing in choiceless awareness is connecting me with the area beyond thought or oneness.I think nothing can be seen with crystal clarity. I also can’t help anyone to see it, because the area beyond thought is invisible. So it is a paradox in saying the awareness of what is without any intention to change also brings the unknown into our conscious life.

Maybe it is easier to express that the thought process alone blocks the unknown in our consciousness.

To solve a problem by the thought process alone means to exchange one part by another one. What ever result shows up in our mind can only be a limited part.

With choiceless awareness it is different. The observer and the observed are one. This is for me oneness in action. Out of this oneness a decision arises directly connected with the whole. I have not experienced such a state very often. But when an information came to my mind it was very interesting, that the information was very often helpful.

This post was last updated by Manfred Kritzler 16 hours ago.

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10 hours ago #13
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5778 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
Maybe it is easier to express that the thought process alone blocks the unknown in our consciousness.

That is clear. Thought is always the known.

Manfred Kritzler wrote:

To solve a problem by the thought process alone means to exchange one part by another one. What ever result shows up in our mind can only be a limited part.

Again, that is very clear. Although that limited part always starts with a sort of implicit assumption that it is NOT limited, doesn't it?

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
But when an information came to my mind it was very interesting, that the information was very often helpful.

Yes, I think I have experienced this also. Is this intelligence acting? Silence acting? Rather than "information" can we use the word "realisation"?

I continue to look at this issue of the known/unknown.

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9 hours ago #14
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1764 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
What do you consider is the nature of this miracle, this mystery, Dan? Can it be described at all?

I don't think so Clive...it comes in a flash, you are walking alone in the woods and suddenly you realize the 'improbable' place where you are. On a planet in an enormous galaxy and you are surrounded by growing, walking, squirming, swimming, wonderful flying things and somehow you are shocked to see that you exist in the midst of them...that you are one of them....and they can't say but you can: "I am here"..."I know, I see that I am here, now, in this amazing place!"

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