My expirience of thinker and thought is that,I am the thinker and I am thinking.It is clear that there is a underlaying asumption that thinker and thought are separate.

The JK's undestanding is that our asumption is not true.It creats a duality that I am different from the world,Which he has contridicted by saying that actuality is that"you are the world".

Many of the activites in the world are done by me,I can not disown ,it exist because of such activities. yet I really do not feel that I am the world,though I may feel that I am part of it.

Perhaps it would be not out of place to mention of the consiousness and its contents.We are sure in general consciousness of the humanity is same for the individuals.But interstingly a person not acquinted with jk ,would put a question; if that is so, why is that any two deferent individuals differ psychologically?

Is this due to the fact that thought is spliting itself for its own sake?There are critical points that have to be addreesed to resolve to understand the trueth.

I am that Iam.

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Wed, 31 Aug 2011.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Is this due to the fact that thought is spliting itself for its own sake?

Good idea, dear Arjuna Rao

I think (...) it would be safe to consider thought as a very sophisticated network of mental safety devices. Basically, in the actual jungle or in the virtual jungle an office/ village, and so on, you want ( the brain wants) to feel safe, to have the feeling it is in control, not attacked. And the 'thinker' can be viewed as a mental protective device that overlooks all this, and accumulates experience about 'what works' or 'what does not work'. Now when you step out of the office this structure which you have identified with ( kind of an auto- pilot) is looking to all other facts of life with the same attitude: "is it a danger?" is it a safe relationship ?" "What can be done to optimise this or that relationship ?" . So, the initial cause, -the need for safety" slides into several subprocesses and the 'censor' or 'decider' is the one who establishes priorities. Sounds like a computer ? Well, thought is the creator of all computers...I guess it may be the subconscious identification with this observer/censor/coordinator/me/ I that is the 'weakest link' in a logic otherwise flawless. Questionong the reality of the 'me' presents a potential risk for the whole defensive protection. So, most people would zap to another channel...

John Raica wrote:
Questionong the reality of the 'me' presents a potential risk for the whole defensive protection. So, most people would zap to another channel...

Sir, practically speaking even when one is questioning the reality of 'me', the "me" is getting strengthened. One's honesty, sincerity and deep interest in this regard will not make any difference. All the discussion going on inside or outside about it will be an exercise in futility. It is a dead end.

Then what would be the right approach in this matter of 'questioning the reality of "me"'?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
It is clear that there is a underlaying asumption that thinker and thought are separate.

What is the nature of this assumption, ArjunaRao? Is it verbal knowledge, a feeling or is it possible to 'see' this division?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
is it possible to 'see' this division?

True and inexhaustible, he shines forth in the water with pure divinity. Other creatures and plants , his branches, are reborn with their progeny.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
What is the nature of this assumption, ArjunaRao? Is it verbal knowledge, a feeling or is it possible to 'see' this division?

Dr.Sharmaji,

Is it not a every day common expireince of every body that thought is what the individual puts forward and individual stay separate? Please try and convence somebody that thought and thinker are not separate.It will solve my problem.

I am that Iam.

I think it is the feeling that thought and thinker are separate.

I am that Iam.

It may not be out of place to put some of the views of Ramana Maharshi for undestanding the self.I believ that it may not contridict jk.

Our intelectual discussion seems to have stuck at the level of the exsitance of self,it is time that we focus on "I", as on its own and as the a thouhgt.Don't we indulge in such activity?There is some spesaility in the I-thought itself.No other thought my carry such an importance.I feel it carries tremendraous enrgy with it.It is some thing like a spirit.It can not stay on its own,it sustains something gross like an organic body.Its input is form the pure consciousness.

This is leads to a question, is the body me?It is held by Mahartheshi that:I am the body is ignorence,but the body is not separate form pure consiousness is trueth.JK did not encourage the notin of you are not the body.The reason being that we have consiousness in the presence of the I-thoght.till we completely undestand this pricess of I-thought it is going to be a paradox.The thought seems to dominate our consciousness.That is where consiousness is felt through the psychological phenomena.That where self seems to spring.

When I write a posting,it is done with a writer which is me.It that gives the enrgy.It is an enrgy that has its potentail to identify with objects.That is done throuhg the thought.perhaps it is where thought gets seperated as the thought and thinker ( identifying with the I-thought)
.True that this is mear intelectual.

I am that Iam.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
even when one is questioning the reality of 'me', the "me" is getting strengthened. One's honesty, sincerity and deep interest in this regard will not make any difference.

It seems , doctor, that thought, this 'false friend'of man, is once more playing a trick on us: The "I" or 'me' or 'self- centredness' has already some implicit condemnation in its very name ( since all seers told us it is an impediment in our spiritual quest) So we start with a bias, or an initial 'value judgement' which further on is taken by our deep rooted self-protection devices as a direct attack, so an inner conflict results , so what results strenghtening of the same initial safety devices. The solution is in the tool of observation itself: K talked endlessly of a 'choiceless awareness' and he really meant 'choiceless', that is no preferences, no prejudices, ...no 'naming names'. So it is a matter of having a proper perceptive instrument, since the instrument can and does interact and/or distort with perception itself ( same as in sub-atomic physics).

I guess this 'don't know' state was so natural for K that he often failed to mention it. So everybody has his own way of observing, depending of the initial content of his prejudiced mind. A 'textbook' example for the cause becoming effect and the effect becoming a ( new) cause. So, it may be not only wise, but also energy efficient to start from a 'don't know' platform, which in fact is an extremely safe position: you cannot 'fall' from a ladder if you are already on the ground level: so, nothing to achieve, and this frees our inborn perceptive quality

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Then what would be the right approach in this matter of 'questioning the reality of "me"'?

All Approach connote a premeditated action.Therefore approaches are out .Stop becoming the part of any story through approaches or understandings.The maximum one can do is to negate or count the rosary beads ( which are but negative approaches) to avoid getting caught up in the muddle by way of remembering.

Both shall only refrain the self getting caught though only an insight shall bring the final release.

The beautiful part is it happens when one least expects the same or one is not counting the rosary beads.

ganesan balachandran wrote:
It is the intuition of jk that he didn't mention the how or the sacredness in India and perhaps he had his own hope.
gb

Hello gb

Yes ,this question is still in a corner of my brain ( unless there is memory somewhere else too).
I often wonder what K meant by that sacredness in India , it seems to have been a rich land for "special" people..any ideas or thoughts?

Dan.....

Muad dheeb wrote:
any ideas or thoughts?

only intuition can help:)
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

ganesan balachandran wrote:
only intuition can help:)
gb

yes...<:@)

Dan.....

I think that it is not an obligation on our part to agree to the nonexsitance of the self or traying to kill it.It is the relectance to be atleast sceptical in an enquir of self,that really closes discussion.I may sound that I am ether contridictory or believer in self, when I say that transformation that takes place in subsedance of the self after the enquiry( it is not promise but could be a speculation without a motive),brings in clear understanding of the mind which has many things in its structure.There can not be anihilation of the self that so many of us feel would happen.Present attemt is only a trail. Minds activity,with note t owatch out for a possible illusion.

I am that Iam.

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sat, 20 Aug 2011.

Ravi Seth wrote:
All Approach connote a premeditated action.Therefore approaches are out .Stop becoming the part of any story through approaches or understandings.The maximum one can do is to negate or count the rosary beads ( which are but negative approaches) to avoid getting caught up in the muddle by way of remembering.

Believing that approaches would produce results is out AND seeing the approaches originating and ending is IN.

Ravi Seth wrote:
Both shall only refrain the self getting caught though only an insight shall bring the final release.

It all boils down to the speed of movement of seeing. When it is in tune with creative movement, self falters and ends.

Ravi Seth wrote:
The beautiful part is it happens when one least expects the same or one is not counting the rosary beads.

One is not there to expect anything.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

John Raica wrote:
So, it may be not only wise, but also energy efficient to start from a 'don't know' platform, which in fact is an extremely safe position: you cannot 'fall' from a ladder if you are already on the ground level:

Sir, this "don't know' does not guarantee the absence of knowledge already stored in the mind. Thoughts of knowledge, experiences, beliefs etc. will keep on popping up in the mind. Can one do anything but to look at them and let them go? Will this 'looking' actually be the state of 'don't know'?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Please try and convence somebody that thought and thinker are not separate.

If anyone tries to do so, his attempt is proof that he himself lacks real understanding. It is neither possible to gain nor share this understanding by the medium of words, ArjunaRao.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
I think it is the feeling that thought and thinker are separate.

I would like to share something with you here, ArjunaRao. Usually, thought and thinker are separate is a verbal understanding and that means a thought.

When one is living this separation...is actually in this state of division, then attention/awareness/seeing/observing are absent. When they are present, then the division is not as the centre 'thinker' can not co-exist with them.

One can have a feeling of only a real event/process happening now. Would you still call the division of thinker and thought a 'feeling'?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
When one is living this separation...is actually in this state of division, then attention/awareness/seeing/observing are absent. When they are present, then the division is not as the centre 'thinker' can not co-exist with them.

As far as my undestanding goes when the thinker is at the center,attention,awereness,seeing,observing are disstorted,eventually thinker imposes his will. The dammage done is such that our own word looks like a feeling,which is not true.The word is an assumption.After all we do live with thought and it need not be true .It could be an illusion. That is what most people engage in.

I am that Iam.

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Mon, 22 Aug 2011.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
The word is an assumption.After all we do live with thought and it need not be true .It could be an illusion. That is what most people engage in.

One may honestly decide not to live with the illusion, not to be in the category of most people, ArjunaRao. He is not ready to live with conflict, sorrow, despair etc. We all understand his plight because he is us. But is this the end? Should we resign to fact of living in hell? Is our discussion going to stagnate at this level forever?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Is our discussion going to stagnate at this level forever?

Yes.

With your incessant questioning which is simply noise, what do you expect?

For a change drop these mind toys you are so much attached to.

more from today's quote:

• ...Or they ( mind and thoughts ) have thoroughly satisfied themselves through economic, social, religious or political achievements, and then they turn to the inner, there also to succeed, to be successful, to attain; and to attain, they must have always a culmination, a goal, which but becomes the condition to which the mind and heart are continually adjusting themselves.

Then sudhir ,Hello sudhir! wrote this:-

• Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:

  But is this the end? Should we resign to fact of living in hell? Is our discussion going to stagnate at this level forever?

Well it may ! In my views a huge part of krishnamurti talks is an attempt to awake to some superficial knowledge/awareness of the mind , nothing wrong with the word superficial here , as in order to start what is first obvious has to be taken into account..then we go or not into fear, memory ,cravings,illusion, goal and the all analytical brain doing its work : analysing.

When careful , patient analysing of facts can see up to a point.
Which point ?
I mean the point where it gets some idea of its own functioning and where all that leads to, what the consequences are.
Without suffering I would not do all that , it is obviously forcing me ,alas it is also at the origin of insanity out of pure ignorance , in which the shepherds absolutely want to maintain the flock for trivial possessiveness reasons , when even a flock of sheep does not need any shepherd , it is the shepherd who needs the flock...

Obviously this analysing has not brought radical changes but for the very few, and I mean few, apart in practical fields which is obvious and logical as it is its job ,are you surprised when you hit the nail with a hammer ? not at all that is its function, this is what I mean here...
take the past times, well people can always find their ways to have food ,shelter and could go from A to B , some problems occurred because of the lazy thieves only , the lazy "boss" ,still the case today as the thieves still lead the world ...we let them do..
otherwise the collective group always had food and so on...

I say that some "programs" of the brain keep working in fields where they are a danger , would most people agree on that ?
Example : to built my shelter , kind of the most steady it can be , is required ,then the same comparative program is used to deal with the all of life , this is where competition arises from for me.

What do I mean by change ? Well the removal of discontentment , sorrow, pain as I am not a sad-masochist at all so I am intelligent::))...

A change which is turning on a capacity to deal with hurts of life ,which by side effect will bring deep changes for my feeling in life so in society , an insane society where the warriors are rewarded with golden chocolate medals and huge salaries and honours, and/or used for the privilege of the most insane of us, or even now used to be the company representatives of some bankers and oil companies..negotiating using an army has always been the privilege of all colonialist country , and of all non colonialist countries inside their borders too..
this is fact actually happening right ?

This analytical process may need to be smashed , destroyed , brought down to its knees...is my lucky guess of the day :)

More than explanations let me tell you one of my recurrent dream for years, same dream all the time , which is gone now as I got the message , I think.

• I Walk near by the sea side in a nice spot, at a higher level than the water level. Nice!
  In the distant far, I feel that something is coming ,something huge, big ,all of a sudden I understand that the water level is rising quickly , not like a tsunami no, just rising no waves involved in it.
  Then I run up the grass hill to protect me , which works for some time , I am anxious but still feel reasonably kind of safe.
  But the water level keeps rising up and at some stage is only left a square meter of land where I am and the water level keeps rising up , I know this is the end...then the dream turns into a nightmare and I wake up , sweating, entirely frightened....
  This dream kept happening years after years when I got this point : don't resist , allowed you to drown in to this immensity , it is too huge, too big anyway , no point to resist...then I drowned into the water and understood that it is the same with the all of my life , resisting is useless ...deeply painful and may lead to any kind of reaction from depression, suicide, violence towards others , business , war, killing and so on, anything get spoiled indeed , anything has the taste of bitterness of life, all that because we escape so suffer so try to get rid of it by escaping in anything but NEVER taking what is.
  It seems to be huge what has to be awakened in us.

The dream never came back , I see the need to drown into the water , to allow the all brain not to resist , for no other reasons but those two: one ,it is too big...resisting brings a huge attempt to escape , and two , all of a sudden I see that this escape ,which includes goals and achievement is pure pain , it is sorrow ,then the energy of the pain can then act as a catalyst to freeze the evil action of the analysing process , which I am not trying to describe entirely at all , for me a wide enough but vague idea of it is enough, like I don't need to explain the all process of walking to ....actually walk :).

Well , as it is said in the book Dune, by franck Herbert : Paul Muad Dhib says: it is one thing to see the path and another one to actually walk it..
This is why my nick name muad dheeb....an evocation of that...

I see a way in my own life , but I am stuck near the door ,which I consider logical after years of going the wrong way , instant awareness and all is solved is not what I know..

The way is to discover a talent , a capacity , for that the pain of sorrow is there to help , here it start to be out of reach for words .
It is a doing which is required and , well , that is huge too ,there is a danger to be lost in it , mainly because another more subtle expectation can totally hide itself far down below our superficial consciousness....which again can even lead to a far bigger personal disaster ,which then would leave no choice at all , but drown into the water like in the dream...

In my views so far , our old animal brain cannot face what it sees which is not memorised or of its will as it seems to be only capable to look at its memories and conclusions.
It is probably its fate to be like that, or better say it is built in so set up this way ( by the principle at the origin of it )and there is nothing wrong with it if .... i.e..the all education is shaping , escaping , accepting , obeying, and so on , we kill the beauty of life in all kids this way ,then they become adults and do the very same.

So animal brain where science is located ( I say that as any technic is about survival when we believe it is the new god to salvation, so misused ) has to get the point to face what it cannot deal with and to know about its automatic desire to escape which it shall not do ,a right program to protect the body gets it wrong , in "inner" thinking .
This automatic desire to escape seems to be based on some instinctive reaction like the one which pushes us to remove the hand from the fire, a body/mind reaction.

So it shall learn to stay when it does not know ,this is what to do in my views, and here there is no method apart from doing it , but beyond words and personal will, this is why we suffer as it is here to help too...suffering is here to help , sounds weird yes...for now I see it this way..

then...nothing can be predicted in many fields...life becomes a different piece of cake....we can read the krishnamurti notebook about his impressions beyond the self...it gives some taste , with words yes but I think it is worthy.
Time to discover is involved in all that ,the same time for the flower to blossom and spread the perfume.

Not easy <:@).....

Dan.....

This post was last updated by Muad dhib (account deleted) Sat, 20 Aug 2011.

Ravi Seth wrote:
Yes.
With your incessant questioning which is simply noise, what do you expect?
For a change drop these mind toys you are so much attached to.

The question was rhetorical, Ravi. Anyways, if I drop my mind toys, what will you do with yours? :)

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Muad dheeb wrote:
This analytical process may need to be smashed , destroyed , brought down to its knees...is my lucky guess of the day :)

Dear Muad dheeb, In your post no. 22 you speak from the heart and I thank you for that.

The analytical abilities of the mind are an asset in solving the problems of the outer world. Mind knows no other way to do its job. So, when it works to solve the conflicts and disturbances of the inner world, it can not be blamed. I feel that any harsh emotional criticism of its activities is a waste of energy.

I would like your input on something.

While crossing a busy road, mind is very alert and quite. The leakage of energy in to analytical mode of its functioning is nil in such moments.

Just after crossing the road, the alertness is gone and analytical process starts again. What happens at the point of transition?

Does analytical process becomes more powerful and replaces alertness?

Or alertness subsides first and this invites analytical process to start again?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
this "don't know' does not guarantee the absence of knowledge already stored in the mind

It certainly doesn't doctor. The " I don't know" statement must be a major insight in the very first place: the psychic impact of this truth itself: that you don't know anything -first hand- of your own inner world. can and does create an interval of silence of thought. in that interval- a split second, 'you', the master of all thoughts become humble, so there is a pause from this endless causality of thought or mental agitation, in that there is a 'seeing' or an indepth understanding of the problem you are confronted with. Of course there is no guaranty that it will actually happen, but there are chances that it will, depending of our total sensitivity and the weight of psychic burden we are carying over- in K terms 'sorrow'. So, my point was that this stored knowledge may not react 'personally' or not react at all, while if it does respond it is always with the arogance of its own past experience . So, dealing with truth, doctor, is a very finicky business...

This post was last updated by John Raica Sun, 21 Aug 2011.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
In your post no. 22 you speak from the heart

sudhir..yes I do.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
I would like your input on something.

While crossing a busy road, mind is very alert and quite. The leakage of energy in to analytical mode of its functioning is nil in such moments.

Well right.

Then your question:
sudhir says :Just after crossing the road, the alertness is gone and analytical process starts again. What happens at the point of transition?

I am sorry sudhir but so far I don't go into that type of question , because I can't answer it now , like I can't tell about the moment when I fall asleep so far , I don't try either.
I reckon it may be a valid question ...I am not the right person to go into it right now.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Does analytical process becomes more powerful and replaces alertness?
Or alertness subsides first and this invites analytical process to start again?

Now that slightly different ! In what I know it is more a full cooperation of the all brain which is required . Again I am not in the describing of it , I am in taking the energy of sorrow or discontentment in my ways...this is what is needed for me right now.

Anyway to put it simply I see two programs leading life.
One is the censor as k called it : yes/no.
The other one is a calculator ..

Then how all that works in the detail ? I don't know, but I perfectly see your point in which , so far , I can't be of some "help"..the crossing of the road is a good example , myself I had this thinking when a car crash occurred in front of me, "I" just did what had to be done in the situation ,so doing the right thing, then went back analysing it over....

If it speaks more to me one day , I may come back to it..

thanks.

Dan.....

Muad dheeb wrote:
Then your question:
sudhir says :Just after crossing the road, the alertness is gone and analytical process starts again. What happens at the point of transition?
I am sorry sudhir but so far I don't go into that type of question , because I can't answer it now ,

I am not asking you to answer the question but practicall try to see what is happening at that point.

Alertness gone would ammount to the loss of clarity, sharpness of observation and ability to react/adjust instantly by seeing.

So, one can safely say that all the above factors go away in a flash and the thought process starts. Now, I am asking you to do one thing- "Is it not possible to look at the freshly arising movement of thought with the previous alertness and clarity that were present while crossing the road before they (clarity and alertness) disappear?

Once this can be done by the mind, then sooner or later it would know what happens at the point of transition.

Do experiment with this, Muad dheeb. Freedom involves free two-way movement of alertness from the area of sorrow and suffering in the brain to the area of causeless joy and again back to sorrow and suffering. That would be, as you call it, the full cooperation of the brain. We should not bind ourselves in limitation at any point and neglect one for the other, please.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Dr.sudhir sharma Sat, 20 Aug 2011.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
I am not asking you to answer the question but practically try to see what is happening at that point.

Hello sudhir , I got your point , but I just won't do that.... It is not a matter of wrong /right at all and I REALLY mean it, no advice from me here but in my present situation it is a matter of what I can or want to do.

It would be too long to explain here , but I have done ....all??... the "analytical" explanations I was able to do which in fact have brought more problems and solved none in the field of what brings too much heaviness in life, apart from when I found a clever escape functioning for some time..mind you, doing something is not necessarily an escape , but usually it is...this is a corruption of life and its beauty by the self, acting like a filter and corrupting absolutely everything indeed.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Now, I am asking you to do one thing- "Is it not possible to look at the freshly arising movement of thought with the previous alertness and clarity that were present while crossing the road before they (clarity and alertness) disappear?

What I am with clumsiness trying to say here is that , which is vague to me :
- somehow in a sorrow situation , when sorrow is used somehow ,it can be useful to bring some different state of the mind, even for seconds which is already enough to bring a change, a change in the brain which seems to have some different capacities like this one capable to reveal the root of the origin of some hurt ,pain ,misunderstanding , all that brings relief , a weird unusual sensation and so on...my point is for me , that in this corner I sense there is the Goodness which met me twice deeply when younger..(sorry to mention again but it is needed here for the clarity of my saying)
I sense it is the right way so far....mind you sudhir , I am still caught in the dark side ...

the point of transition you mention can be of deep interest if it can be used of course , I am just not there now and need to keep my own pace as I am in the middle of some problem which absolutely need to be seen or remove first...

Thanks for the concern and questioning , never hesitate , even though i won't always take it...the sharing is really important ,we shall keep on sharing what we do see...

Take care.

Dan.....

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Anyways, if I drop my mind toys, what will you do with yours? :)

Give them to you to keep the child in you busy.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Just after crossing the road, the alertness is gone and analytical process starts again. What happens at the point of transition?

Does analytical process becomes more powerful and replaces alertness?

Or alertness subsides first and this invites analytical process to start again?

Are the above real questions or just rhetorical manner of speech?