There are billions human being living in self centered, conflicted shallow life.So is there a distance between a transformed and and rest of humanity?

Why in oneness of transformation, still division, still self exist?

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
Why in oneness of transformation, still division, still self exist?

If there is a complete oneness of transformation in oneself , the humanity will appear as without division I think.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

ganesan balachandran wrote:
If there is a complete oneness of transformation in oneself , the humanity will appear as without division I think.

But this appearance don't end division in rest of seven billions human beings.

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
There are billions human being living in self centered, conflicted shallow life.So is there a distance between a transformed and and rest of humanity?

Hi, Dhirendra. I believe that we can look at this vast unsolved issue in this manner: in our times, as in the past times, the human brain is/was dominated by the instinct of survival, which gives birth almost naturally to the psychological desire to continue, to accumulate and to protect whatever was gained. So the brain gets trapped in its own desire for continuity which gets infinitely complicated by our social interactions, rules and so on. This has become the generally accepted way of life, it is not even questioned, every phylosophy or psychology or other humanistic science takes it for granted But it is just a partial/fragmentary mode or way of living. As for the 'transformed'( but where are they ?) it may be a defragmanted mode of the same human brain. It is all a matter of unconditioning our mind-brain system. My humble guess of why so few 'made it', is that we are so easily trapped in the practice of it, too often looking over the shoulder to what K or other 'realised' people did and said. We simply fail to understand that such transformation has to take place strictly between ' us and ourselves'

This post was last updated by John Raica Mon, 07 Nov 2011.

dhirendra singh wrote:
So is there a distance between a transformed and and rest of humanity?

Dhirendra, the distance is certainly there but it is within one's own mind. The transformed state of mind is looking and acting in this world differently in a different dimension. To such a mind the distance between 'what it was and now is' is quite obvious. To enquire about the distance between a transformed person and rest of humanity is a movement of thought if done by a mind living in conflict.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

John Raica wrote:
We simply fail to understand that such transformation has to take place strictly between ' us and ourselves'

Well John, so this is the fact that most people fail to understand.

K starts from the point that there is suffering, there is war, there is conflict, and when K finish, there may be few individual for whom suffering may have ended, but rest of world remain as it is.

So clearly, there is no solution for world, for most of human being.As an ideal we may say that everyone can understand and can go beyond but as a matter of fact, it don't happen.

Probably my question is not as simple as it has been answered.

If seven billion people are one, a single body, then we are only able to cure few cells, rest of body remain diseased, is this cure at all?

I don't know

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
The transformed state of mind is looking and acting in this world differently in a different dimension. To such a mind the distance between 'what it was and now is' is quite obvious.

Well sudhir, Do this transformed state can't look at 'self', acting as master in most human brain and can't end this?

Or this transformed state is strictly restricted in an individual brain and can't do anything to rest of the humanity which was claimed to be one by slogan that "I am world"?

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
Do this transformed state can't look at 'self',...

Dhirendra, it is all the time looking/listening to the activities os 'self' which, because of this new quality of seeing/listening, has become a toothless tigre. Under its direct gaze, the self is not the same disturbing factor that it used to be for the psyche.

dhirendra singh wrote:
Or this transformed state is strictly restricted in an individual brain and can't do anything to rest of the humanity which was claimed to be one by slogan that "I am world"?

The 'individual' is gone and 'indivisible' is there, Dhirendra. When one is not spreading negative energy, then others in relationship are likely to remain positive, isn't this so? THAT may act in more mysterious ways for rest of humanity but movement of thought has no ability to comprehend/explain that.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Hello Dhirendra,

It would be wonderful if just one person was transformed.

Don't worry about the rest of humanity just now.

Can you become a transformed human being, end suffering in yourself, then you will see what happens.

Then perhaps you will see what needs to be done or not done.

With affection, peter

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Mon, 07 Nov 2011.

Can you discover what the self really is?

Peter

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Mon, 07 Nov 2011.

dhirendra singh wrote:
this transformed state is strictly restricted in an individual brain and can't do anything to rest of the humanity

Creating light for the whole universe, Dawn has opened up the darkness as cows break out from their enclosed pen.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Peter Kesting wrote:
Can you discover what the self really is?

At the outset let me tell you that is my view point:

We know that self is the known to us.In fact it is through the self we come to know any thing, yet we ask if can we really know what it is?That is the complexity of it ,the so called the self.My question, is that necessary to define it?;like how we would defene a materail thing in a techinical field?Is it really worth it? We admit that there is something which we do not know, and it can not be approached through the known.It is pathless.It can only be known only when the known is understood and go beyound it.As long as self is there there is known.The path to self is as mystirious as the unknown.It can be known only from moment to moment.one's fair approach to it is, one's own understanding of it, devoid of the falses.The contents of one's consciousness will ultimatly give the structure and nature of the self, which also give the glimse of the nature of the psychological time.The endeavour would be to know one's self from instant to instant, that should break the hold of the self and clear of the unique path which would be onc's own,to the unknown.

I am that Iam.

suffering may be more awkward with few transformations as one can see in oneself.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

dhirendra singh wrote:
when K finish, there may be few individual for whom suffering may have ended, but rest of world remain as it is.

The true answer to your question, Dhirendra, may be contained in the " You are the world"- K statement, later on vulgarised by successful pop singers and...many others. The consciousness of humanity is one, a whole, yet our contribution/participation to it is at best fragmentary and at worst...abusive. Personally I see it as a 'new house', available for each and everyone. It may be only our collective and personal ignorance that is preventing us to benefit from this total consciousness. So, yes, our school teachers and parents coaxed us along the line of fragmentary mode of existence, this being the mainstream of collective thought, and there is no peace, love or any true universality along this line- only conditional survival and conformity. But then, nobody is preventing us to 'step aside' from this stream. So, as I said, the liberating solution is within and not outside ourselves. And I am afraid that everyone of the 7 billions of us will have to do it individually. The collective offer is a pleasurable ( at first) and sorrowful (in the end) dull, mechanical existence. It is an open choice for everyone.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Dhirendra, it is all the time looking/listening to the activities os 'self' which, because of this new quality of seeing/listening, has become a toothless tigre. Under its direct gaze, the self is not the same disturbing factor that it used to be for the psyche.

Well, Sudhir, when you are seeing, then why 'self' in this person,in dhirendra, is still toothed tiger?

Are there many consciousnesses?

I don't know

John Raica wrote:
And I am afraid that everyone of the 7 billions of us will have to do it individually. The collective offer is a pleasurable ( at first) and sorrowful (in the end) dull, mechanical existence. It is an open choice for everyone.

Well, John, this shows that oneness is not reality, everyone is separate.

And peoples are different, most peoples will feel sleepy if you talk about these things, so practically it's for few, not for everyone.

I don't know

Peter Kesting wrote:
It would be wonderful if just one person was transformed.

Well, K was transformed and it may be wonderful, though I don't know how, but my point is, still maximums are being operated through 'self', even after wonderfully transformed K, does this means that there are still others, I am not world?

Peter Kesting wrote:
Don't worry about the rest of humanity just now.

Can you become a transformed human being, end suffering in yourself, then you will see what happens.

I would have liked to be transformed first and then start worrying, but I can't be transformed because I don't know how to do this.

So, Peter, sir, I have to do which I can do, and that is,I feel worried about rest of humanity.

I don't know

the conditioning ,conditioning on time and evolution is strong, that even we find it difficult to get disentangled. clearly there will be seeing of the inevitability of transformation of the whole.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Tue, 08 Nov 2011.

dhirendra singh wrote:
Well, Sudhir, when you are seeing, then why 'self' in this person,in dhirendra, is still toothed tiger?

Suppose Sudhir is 'seeing', then for Sudhir Dhirendra's 'self' is a toothless tiger.

Suppose Sudhir's self is a toothed tiger, then for him Dhirendra's 'seeing' is an illusion generated by self.:)

dhirendra singh wrote:
Are there many consciousnesses?

No, but elaborating on this is futile.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Dr.sudhir sharma Tue, 08 Nov 2011.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Suppose Sudhir is 'seeing', then for Sudhir Dhirendra's 'self' is a toothless tiger.

But you see, this don't stop dhirendra from killing, from war.In Sudhir self is not master, actions are not self centered, but in Dhirendra, self is master, actions are self centered, my point was, when Sudhir is seeing, then why self, in sudhir, stops as master, and still continue to operate as master in Dhirendra, even Sudhir is seeing to both the self?

Why the effect of seeing is different on Dhirendra and Sudhir?

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Tue, 08 Nov 2011.

dhirendra singh wrote:
Why the effect of seeing is different on Dhirendra and Sudhir?

Dear friend, there is seeing and 'seeing'.:)

Normally the eyes are seeing and the mind (self) is reacting to this input.

Then there is 'seeing' (listening) with total attention (all sense organs attentive at the same time) which requires all available energy. There is no energy available for self. Hence, it is a toothless tiger.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Dr.sudhir sharma Tue, 08 Nov 2011.

dhirendra singh wrote:
Why the effect of seeing is different on Dhirendra and Sudhir?

yes, i feel mostly others are transformed.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Then there is 'seeing' (listening) with total attention (all sense organs attentive at the same time) which requires all available energy. There is no energy available for self. Hence, it is a toothless tiger.

Sudhir this was not my question.Let me try again.:)

Do such seeing is limited in Sudhir's skull, and can only make his self's toothless?Or this seeing is not limited in sudhir's skull and operates on whole consciousness?And if it operates on whole consciousness, then why this makes, a particular self, eg. of sudhir's self, toothless, but allow all remaining selves toothed.?

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
then why this makes, a particular self, eg. of sudhir's self, toothless, but allow all remaining selves toothed.?

the tiger should go old.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

ganesan balachandran wrote:
the tiger should go old.

:)

I don't know

I was travelling and watching things go by. i also was preoccupied and saw only those related to my preoccupation, other things didn't impact me.
are we preoccupied with transformation or suffering.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

ganesan balachandran wrote:
the tiger should go old.

Zen story: An Elder and younger student were out picking herbs in the forest. The younger student glimpses a tiger, stops his picking and hurriedly begins to back away saying "Look brother, a tiger!" The elder continues his gathering and replies "It's your tiger".

dhirendra singh wrote:
this shows that oneness is not reality

For people like K, all-oneness was a fact, personally I believe it is a deep truth. He also pointed out that we have to go through our personal loneliness and isolation to get to the actuality of this oneness. But this inner passage seems to go through integration and this is our 'entry ticket'. I know that there was some 'wishful thinking' implied even in K's private dialogues,namely that if ' a few of us' would reach that undivided consciousness things could trigger even for the consciousness of the billions who are doing nothing along this line ( and most of them have a very good excuse: they simply want to survive decently and enjoy a few moments of happiness), but somehow this new consciousness has to be 'earned' by an earnest (non-)effort to transcend our inheritance.

dhirendra singh wrote:
Sudhir this was not my question.Let me try again.:)

Now, I also have to try again.:)

dhirendra singh wrote:
Do such seeing is limited in Sudhir's skull, and can only make his self's toothless?

This time no explanation, Dhirendra. I will try to share only 'seeing'.

Yes, the 'seeing' is going on inside the skull. Yes again for the second half of your question. This 'seeing' and reactions of the self can not exist together.

dhirendra singh wrote:
Or this seeing is not limited in sudhir's skull and operates on whole consciousness?

This 'seeing' is limitless space wise. It covers all functioning of my mind. There was a time I (my mind) was ignorant of its existence. Seeing/listening/observing the functioning of my own mind is in some mysterious way responsible for its being/presence now.

Now few projections -

1. This 'seeing' must have been present previousely also when my mind was unable to touch it.


2. If the above is right, then it is present (yet hidden) in all the minds where self is active.


3. As it has made my 'self' a toothless tiger, it can do so in others too. So, it can be presumed that it can potentially act on whole consciousness of mankind.

dhirendra singh wrote:
And if it operates on whole consciousness, then why this makes, a particular self, eg. of sudhir's self, toothless, but allow all remaining selves toothed.?

What is happening within oneself is not easy to express accurately but one can say with certainity that it is so. Projecting the same on others can only be speculative and has no significance.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

ganesan balachandran wrote:
are we preoccupied with transformation or suffering.

This is the 'seed' kind of question, gb. No attempt should be made to find/seek an answer to it.

FLOW WITH LIFE!