just reposting this thread about the quote of the day.

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Thu, 17 Nov 2011.

Thursday 17-11-2011 :

Theories are of very little value ; because a man who is constantly in conflict with environment, both the past and the present, is continually discerning, penetrating, trying to understand, and therefore he is living completely in the present.

so k says that conflict is permanent if I rightly get his point, I guess I do...

Usually we compare our goals and cravings-desires(me) with what is the environment ( for k as I red it is the outer conditions ,social , nature and so on), and each one goal wants to shape the all environment to fit one person x b seven billion...our collective by force life is the result of this personal-global never ending fight ...at this game the more nuts you are the best chances are that you will win..

There are only two options, the other one is to be the conflict , to digest it, to understand it , to go beyond it by knowing all of it then it talks , this is magic , the problem ,the conflict talks and say....but we fly away from it ...

Well with my cravings permanently interfering by comparing "me" and the environment we put before "me" source of pain and conflict put on purpose in us by Mother Nature to awake intelligence, intelligence cannot live in pain due to escapism of course...and for me one manner to "do " that is to be disturb entirely , to let any event brought by the environment be free to tell its truth...

The truth is in the problem , the conflict, not in the flight away from it through my will....

"will" is just a tool to make tools..

The permanent instability is a fact of Mother Nature , it is in its "nature" and has to be lived by and with it,this is life,
but by refusing that, by the substitution of mother's Nature's nature by our own personal tool to survive , we just don't get it at all....deadly simple mistake ::((

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Thu, 17 Nov 2011.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
The truth is in the problem , the conflict, not in the flight away from it through my will....

Well, dear Dan Mohad Dib, (and also welcome back to our 'corner' of free expression), this is all very true, except that our usual tool of perception and exploration is , shall we call it 'tainted' or shall we use the blunt K term 'conditioned' ? If we look at our inner conflict with a mind partly or totally enmeshed in...conflict, then what we are 'seeing' is a 'conflictually tainted' picture, which indeed becomes self-perpetrated. So, (but...could this be just another hidden 'neo-con' trick ?) a 'letting go' could be the first thing to be done, our mental tool is inadequate and I do not have any other tool available. This interval-pause ?- of non-action might be salutary...since it can prompt or gather the energy for a true perception or insight, of the total kind.

John Raica wrote:
So, (but...could this be just another hidden 'neo-con' trick ?) a 'letting go' could be the first thing to be done, our mental tool is inadequate and I do not have any other tool available.

Hi john...I will be in the south of france soon, but not on your side but near the Spanish border near Lourdes..just because the mushrooms are great...

this letting go , is a difficult moment to be found in....but I must go now..will comeback to it..
this could not be a neo con trick, because this brings someone to the high capacity to refuse the unacceptable...

Dan.

John Raica wrote:
and also welcome back to our 'corner' of free expression

Thanks, just went for a stroll away from here and in order to getting ready for the next physical move of the all family ...and needed a break from saying the very same thing ish all the time :)....

John Raica wrote:
then what we are 'seeing' is a 'conflictual tainted' picture, which indeed becomes self-perpetrated.

So much for the words , but the doing which is needed , which up to a point could or should be said , convey , transmitted up to the possible transmittable limit ish to a child before he himself joins the "normality" of the last 10 000 years..what is this "doing" ?

you remember-know when I started this writing which I won't call a book but just a throwing words on some blank pages...the idea was to see if there was a doing in the fields we are all interested in, here and elsewhere...

there is a doing yes , not one to be convey in a normal way through memorising , but through anything but memorising..

well to go straight to the point, a good life is to take and/or be all disturbances, all problems, all situations , all facts instead of trying to get rid of all that by substituting our personal solutions ..what we all do hurts and will always hurt, this is our second and last chance to get a life...quite simple....

cheers...

Dan a man with a blue van..

Dan.

the all Sunday's quote:

• To me, systems are but the crystallization of thought, and the group is but the expression of that thought. Can they, these crystallized thoughts, by your following them, awaken intelligence? Or have you to begin, not considering yourself as an individual, or as a group, to discern for yourself the stupidities created through the false division of the group and the individual; that is, not considering yourself as an individual, or as a group, to think anew, to think from the very beginning so as to be able to grasp the true significance of each environment, each limitation? Because, if we cannot be so active emotionally and mentally, apart from a system, the mere following of a system and being active in it does not awaken intelligence.

Now, such intelligence, when it is awakened, can truly co-operate, not with stupidities but with other intelligences.

well , crystallization...is a great use of the word in this subject is what I find.
frozen , immovable, permanent ,forever , plenty , more ...

the key of all this journey in intelligence of what is , as a result , is co operation.
this is maybe at least 10 000 years that we refuse( not everyone ) to co operate freely on good collective survival projects beyond the idea of profit...the idea of profit brings to use others for that..After all If I am in the mood to profit on myself well , no problem of course..we refuse co operation and what do we do ? we co operate by force...we are wrong twice here...a world record ,on two attempts ,two failures...two deadly failures.....if there is intelligence well , we seem not to be concerned by that:(....mind you passivity is a form of co operation with the system too, not a criticism but a fact.

At the end of the day we have a relation me with me , when it could be me , me and the Whole of what is...we are missing the what is....a small detail...

Then what ? proud of this world and buying a cheap bargain of a self promoted admiration (far from being everyone) there is the usual feeling that life is too short, too complicated, too insecure, and so on..shitty life so :)

now if you-I can get the feeling or better the knowledge through "magical unexpected "experience that most opinion have an opposite root in the non conscious level (another dimension) , non conscious for "me"....life is too short probably means in our secret chamber : I want it to last forever..there is so the seing of a fact and here we should-could-may leave any fact as it is and stay with it . Then if I am trying to deal with "life is too short " , I will never succeed because the hidden root is " I want it to last forever"..

Analysing can only deal with life is too short...to go to the root needs something else.....

When impermanence is seen I have to stay with it as it is a fact and see from there( apart from that sort of fact where the guy is willing to kill me and so on , I may escape intelligently if possible )...end of the story.

Trained and used not to stay with "what is"....we abandoned what life is , of course thanks k , for what life should be..In itself it does not sound that dramatical , but again when we have a wide close look to ALL mankind activities ...there is no doubt that we are globally nuts.

The only link I have found so far between the two (what is/what should be) is a link which I don't know about its functioning and I don't try to know, I mean the "doing" which is the reachable limit of analysing(self) of being defeated by the too many disturbances , which one day will make anyone a bit awake take for what it is , a pain, and decide , voluntarily decide to leave all that free to be..out of simply being too fed up....this is a spark of intelligence...::)))..then I can leave childhood....which is fine when a....child ::))

Not too easy...again what is prevails.........

Dan.

more from the quote of the day:

• ....To understand the whole question of war we must think from the very beginning, not from the nationalistic, racial, class point of view. Inherently, war is wrong. There is no excuse for war as long as there is intelligence functioning. But, as we are mostly ruled by politicians, exploiters, and by such kind, we are forced into one war after another, and many reasons are given for the un-avoidability and the necessity of wars.

Well true as a fact can be true. So violence is wrong, competition is wrong and all of it. The politician says : go to war..what do we do ? WE go to war , kill for the politician and business man safely protected in their bunker,laughing at those nuts fighting for their wealth believing it is for a flag, a religion ,an idea and so on , then the poor man is killed, the family cries and keep working for the politician and the business man..

this is sado masochism , and I know the subject and what I did, as in peace time I refused the army , was sacked from it and put my life in the balance ..why ? because when the mind is even slightly intelligent ,which I guess I was ::)) such a man cannot go to war even if its life is in danger..If you have never met such a situation you don't know what I talk about and what happens in the mind in such a hectic time which is much more easy and simple to live and not extraordinary at all as there is an intelligent doing in it , the intelligent doing is strong , peaceful but very much stubborn..again the extraordinary IS to go to war, to compete, to make business , to hate, and so on...we are globally 100 % wrong in a two ways only direction...Here I mention the global failure of a species...so far...The end of oil will force a change, what will it be ? not hard to imagine which no change in the mind..

So we are ruled by politician yes ,but we vote for them... but mainly by a formidable passivity too , as for me it is the selfishness of the mass which creates the space for the politician, the thieve and to be frank , I tell you why in my view, because there is this hidden quest of an absolute sheltered life where we would be protected and secured so is the promise of the politician who is the puppet of the thieves of the global work .A mafia is ruling the world end of the story.

Stealing the group is possible because there is no collective world at all , but people living in the same space only, each one divided from others , never connected with the whole .Of course there are exceptions , not enough I guess.

Then the politician and business man too they seek their shelter in the stealing of our work....they are parasites and we obey...
All this as a root in the mind, probably the fear of dying is the main one as I am showed those days, the first of all : I want to be immortal = fear of the end ..which we all escape as much as we can....

K:

• As long as you do not think clearly, fundamentally, from the very beginning, with regard to this question, one day you will be for peace and the next day you will be for war, because you have not discovered for yourself fundamentally the appalling cruelties, the racial hatreds, the exploitations which create war. Only when there is an awakened intelligence, not only on your part but on the part of politicians, the rulers, will there be peace.

So for war to be a subject,first one must see what it does...today we can see the evil cruelty of it , there are images everywhere....do we look at the horror ?

then with a totally shaken mind, we are disturb ...but we seek shelter...
Thanks Mr K for this insight into what we would call the outside..I notice here and there the outside condition is rarely a subject:(

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Mon, 21 Nov 2011.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
, but the doing which is needed , which up to a point could or should be said , convey , transmitted up to the possible transmittable limit ish to a child before he himself joins the "normality" of the last 10 000 years..what is this "doing" ?

So, Dan-with-a- blue-Van, the doing here is in the removal of the false; namely of the conflicting attitude with whatever we see within and without. I believe that this is the first step, and even the modern generation of young people ( who got a very small attention span due to a flood of divertissments- a non negligeable handicap) could grasp it easily if it were properly explained on an individual basis . We cannot but hope that the many K schools are doing that, rather than playing the common 'school game', artistically seasoned. So before getting to the 'observer is (not divided from) the observer' truth, we have to clean up first a huge amount of psycho- debris which...are hidden in the details of modern, outer/sensory/ oriented living .

Hi john....have you got a van ?? :::))))

John Raica wrote:
the doing here is in the removal of the false;

yes and so far my attitude is a kind of finding my way in all that...it is not a 1+2 = 3 doing.....

John Raica wrote:
I believe that this is the first step, and even the modern generation of young people ( who got a very small attention span due to a flood of divertissments- a non negligeable handicap) could grasp it easily if it were properly explained on an individual basis

yes i see it with my own kids...they have a lot of entertainment as others, they can be very serious at the time, they seem to have their own pace between seriousness and playing, after all they play that is great....so I agree with this.
It demands more a kind of not professional person , but someone who is open to life generally speaking, knowing that teaching needs some particular capacities...
in my 12 years at school , I met two or three real talented teachers..not the best in their field but light years ahead for the capacity to convey ..

John Raica wrote:
we have to clean up first a huge amount of psycho- debris which...are hidden in the details of modern, outer/sensory/ oriented living .

Yes I guess so , in the meantime the first spark of intelligence is there to help...the past was as violent as now, as conditioned as now without tv, and all of it...::))

cheers..got to bring the kids to school....which is quite good here in ireland...especially they have this anti bullying law, very efficient

Dan.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
The politician says : go to war..what do we do ?

In the west people are asked to go to war, because the bussinessman needs to sell his manufactured weapons, and politician needs his support to sustain his political power, the nationalism works wonders for them, in return for committed nationalism, the people are left with great sorrow for eternity(illusive).

In the subcontinent the bussiness men and the politician thrive on the comunal divide between people on the basis of religion, the hindus and muslims, and cast.Just to sustain their political power/ economice dominace the both powrefull groups the bussiness man/ politician resort to dividing the people and play one group againest one and another(bussines man may not involve directly in such activities but funds the politicians ), in fact present Telangana agitation in our state is one such a thing.

The individuals are so self centred, most them do not see beyond their out dated cast for political stakes.That dominace is broken with religious divide,there is no way in seeing the futility of putting trust in the( bussiness man) politician.In a way the politicians can be shown door through the ballet, and such thing does happen these days in subcontinent, but there is no way a powerfull corporate fellow be shown his place, they seem to get away with froud(comes to curpption in the case of politicians)

The division of people by cast consideration is not giving results politically.The saga of suffering and sorrow continueous unabated.

I am that Iam.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
In the subcontinent the business men and the politician thrive on the communal divide between people on the basis of religion, the Hindus and Muslims, and cast.

yes kamarajugadda...any means work...as I see now , it is the divided people who are creating the business men and politician..at the very origin of man a collective intelligent group would not allow the thieves to dominate....most people are minded thieves in the very deep of themselves...

Just to say. Anyway for a journey within , the "work" on everyone remains the same.
For that survival is enough...is my view.
cheers.

Dan.

Dan.

Krishnamurti to Himself | Ojai California Tuesday 10th March, 1983

The other day as one was walking along a secluded wooded lane far from the noise and the brutality and the vulgarity of civilization, right away from everything that was put together by man, there was a sense of great quietness, enveloping all things - serene, distant and full of the sound of the earth. As you walked along quietly, not disturbing the things of the earth around you, the bushes, the trees, the crickets and the birds, suddenly round a bend there were two small creatures quarrelling with each other, fighting in their small way. One was trying to drive off the other. The other was intruding, trying to get into the other's little hole, and the owner was fighting it off. Presently the owner won and the other ran off. Again there was quietness, a sense of deep solitude. And as you looked up, the path climbed high into the mountains, the waterfall was gently murmuring down the side of the path; there was great beauty and infinite dignity, not the dignity achieved by man that seems so vain and arrogant. The little creature had identified itself with its home, as we human beings do. We are always trying to identify ourselves with our race, with our culture, with those things which we believe in, with some mystical figure, or some saviour, some kind of super authority. Identifying with something seems to be the nature of man. Probably we have derived this feeling from that little animal.

As I see it now , alright there is inheritance from "before" mankind .
But those days I totally doubt that it is this animal inheritance which makes us killing at war and raping women ,being violent, steal the collective work , creates unemployment, torture people ,and all of it ...no animal does that ...

We do that because we totally miss our transformation by attempting the running away from "what is", by doing this wrong choice we suffer( on purpose as a last chance to get the point put in us by mother nature for me) and it is the attempt to fly away from our pain which makes us-some go totally insane and organised this vulgarity of civilisation ...I am in pain inside ,deep pain and stupidly when attempt to run away from it , impossible if it is me of course , then I reverse this pain onto the others around me as another stupid attempt to get rid of it, or to attenuate it....please this is so obvious is not it ? To reverse the pain I just use what I have ,then out of fear I amplify this natural process to survive, it is then insanely perverted and it looses touch with its meaning and purpose...

If it was our animal inheritance the responsible for our conduct, Mother Nature would be responsible for ours so Mother Nature would be nuts so would we be...
but this is not , anyone touched by mother nature energy knows that...mother nature is in goodness...not in evil...self which stays in childhood by will as an adult brings the perversion of life, then if we keep that way I guess mankind won't last much more...

we are back to K, what is versus what should be, it is all in these six words..for me :)

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Thu, 24 Nov 2011.

from today's quote :

• .........I assure you, when there is complete nakedness, utter hopelessness, then in that moment of vital insecurity there is born the flame of supreme intelligence, the bliss of truth. In the search for security there arises fear, which begets many illusions, false disciplines, repressions, perversions, the fear of death and the inquiry into the hereafter.

Well if K is right , I-we are not far from the flame :)....I smile but it is half joke and half serious..the outer world seems capable to explode at any time under the pressure of these insanely nuts elites of all kind from the little chief of the street to the big one...and the inner world is yet a myth....we are caught in nothingness , this may be our luck or/and last chance..

I permanently live with this hopelessness and kind of total insecurity for a good while now since I am a so called adult, in the sense that "I" am insecure and hopeless for me and the world as it is and no activity or thinking can affect it now anymore even sex . Escape is not any more possible. Well walking in the wild nature which I will be doing soon as often as possible so most of the time in fact remains great enough to keep the path of life.

But when this disturbing state of mind takes the control and is only what is left , then it shows and explains using a capacity which is usually asleep.
It always shows one thing out of many when taken for what it is :the need to let all that nakedness so nothingness be free to invade all body mind, because the all mind is actually naked, and insecure as a matter of fact...
When I refuse this painful nothingness so when I attempt to escape then I remain in sorrow which I try to escape as well...then I start storing many motives of sorrow in the non conscious level...then all the disturbance is increasing .This can clearly lead to suicide or to kill others...we are nuts because we are in pain ,but we say we are great as we have good cars and try any means to remove it without never attempting to let it free to be.

I do see now as a matter of experience how the search for security exists before the fear of death....(or put differently the fear of death is an effect of a cause which is the search for a steady absolute security).
Unfortunately to see it as it needs to be seen requires more than words,intellectual and logic understanding...but this is a start maybe ,well not sure it is a start at all , as to take sorrow needs nothing but to take sorrow..this is the only "doing" left in my hopeless case possibly..well for me no doubt about it, but see for yourself , you may be more "efficient" than I am...
There clearly is some different(s) capacity(ies) than this analytical brain.(self). Well that's kind of good news isn't ?

How it seems to work ?
when is mainly if not only is left nakedness and hopelessness , if I am not resisting it but if I leave it free to invade all "me",this "doing" is immediately by passing the analytical dictatorship of the analytical brain(self)...this works on its own ::)) then I agree there is clearly some "intelligent process " which is turned on... because at the worse you feel "good" , not good when I achieve or reach , good for no obvious reason apart from that fact that for some time sorrow is gone ...when sorrow is gone , we may say that intelligence is...::))they don't stick together, so sorrow can be the dark side when refusing life as it is....or better say sorrow is the other side of the coin expression of intelligence trying to awake itself in us , but we were not supposed to accept and live in pain I guess...this is what the self do accept because it is still lost in seeking its shelter and refusing what life is....quite complex is not it ? what can be the wrong root turn here ?
Wrong question this last one, this is again seeking or flying away when in our case disturbance must lead the game , not "me"....

When all this is done as it should be done, it brings immediate relief by being in direct contact with one or more hidden cravings which are then entirely seen in action so totally alive and this is the moment when sorrow is wiped away because the direct seing of a craving-desire shows at the same time that this is what is creating the pain , this very seeing wipes away the pain and intelligence is , for some time as long as the self is defeated.
Pain has played its function to be THE catalyst , pain shows what is wrong , what is false, what is right shows itself we do not need to seek for it.

There is some kind of bliss too , but mind you not the huge one k mentions in the notebook , the bliss I mention here is the bliss brought by the relief of pain sorrow always hidden in the not concious part of the mind , not conscious for the analytical brain....when "I" is naked , defeated , then the miracle happens..the beginning of a change...all hope, idea, desires, expectation are useless in this other direction...because from this moment all pain is leading life , all disturbance shows the wrong way...to be honest this is hard way as john put it..all our images,what we learnt ,think we know is therefore useless in this other direction , we are so wrong that it is nearly some kind of evil achievement... Even the wind is intelligent , we are not..we have perverted the gift of life.
But the way is hard if I am strong like an oak as long as there is resistance against the wind of life, yes it is this "resisting what life is " which is the pain...beyond this point if there is search for hope because it hurts I will know I am wrong....
Suffering is the key it seems to be , a vital key when it is used at it has to be used, otherwise it is a final countdown for a global failure of a species...sorry to be so dramatical but "I" was told this in a "vision".

We create a movement from the inner invading the outer to modify it according to what "me" wants, when intelligence would not invade anything but live in oneness as the all universe probably is but us....when peace is , when "I" don't want ,this is indeed totally impossible to conceive for the analytical brain our computer like tool...which qualifies itself , according to its programs all steadily set up , as a "genius"....who as a next step is going to bring its evilness to some other planet ( that the only solution for so called scientist:( this is just to say they have no clue like anyone) ..

Then as we don't accept life so the universe , this could be the signal of our end....and curiously some nuts so called elites by themselves are so caught in their own suffering even if they have enough wealth for 10 000 lives , that they are reaching in fact the idea of suicide considering to implicate others(all of us ) in their insanity ...alas the elites are us and we are them....I mean in our quest with , of course , some differences in the intensity..the more I have , the less I live....

sorrow when invading us is teaching Mother Nature's "plan " for us...no need to go to school , to know how to read, write , counting ...it may be a + when building a shelter , in itself it is as empty as our lives ..let's be filled the mind with universal goodness then ::))

PS: sorry to be too "concise" in this post, next time I will developed all that....<:@)

Dan.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
.........I assure you, when there is complete nakedness, utter hopelessness, then in that moment of vital insecurity there is born the flame of supreme intelligence

Hi, Dan Mohad Dib. Could it be another flaming K quote from the ...swinging 30-s? Sounds great and totally inspiring...but in fact he can 'assure us' only of what you are detailing above; that there will be an acute sensitivity to our imemorial psycho inheritance, sorrow being the gist of it. In fact he seems to have missed to add that the link between supreme intelligence and our daily existence burdened with sorrow, could be a real 'dessert crossing' and even iff you will ever find your way out, there is nobody to guarantee that, including a seasoned and resourceful 'world teacher'. In fact the whole collective and individual karma cannot be so easily by-passed, your lenghtly comments are a living proof. I mentioned several times that K's particular transition, actually a 'huge leap forward' could have been triggered and sustained by vast logistical efforts from higher Intelligences - the official bios contain more than sufficient proof of this. So, this, let us call it Intelligence of the Unknown made a 'pass' on our planet, and left it soon after K's death. We are left, spiritually speaking, with the aftermaths of its passage (or... was it an explosion?). For you, Dan the Man, the present it brought was...sorrow. Incidentally, K told once his close disciples " Be grateful that you have been given sorrow". I can only infer that this is the only way to start an inner Journey, or a crossing to the other side of the river/ strem of collective thought/.
Our only problem is...that sorrow, by its own nature, hurts, the direct simili to a physical wound. The whole mankind had wounded and seriously damaged its natural Consciousness through a history of greed, pleasure, wars, up to the modern media manipulations on the planetary scale- not all necessary engineered by lucrative neo-cons(ervative) think- tanks. This accumulated evil can manifest itself...even under the disguise of your very decent looking next door neighbours ( not necessarily aware of it, either). So, many of us act uncounsciously driven by this collective accumulations of what we- as humanity- did in the past ( shall we call them karmic ?) the only differnce between 'us' and 'them' is that we acutely feel the pain of it, while 'they' - a different part of 'us' too- act under its pressure:like, "make more money, become more safely insured,get more properties and so on and on).

So where would be the true response to all these countless and spiralling issues? This is the 'trick' I've 'stolen' from K and later confirmed by my own inner experience ( believe me, it works ): let it lie there and have a New start; no amount of hardwork in trying to clean up this huge 'garbage heap' inherited from our previous generations will help. Abadon it without looking back and start anew. This past will certain follow you, closer than your shadow, but if you are aware of its potential intrusion even in the most banal thoughts... well there is a chance that you can stay one step ahead of sorrow... on an 'one instant at a time' basis...and I guess that this is how we are actually learning about the advantages and also about the actual responsabilities of spiritual freedom.

hello john ..I am going to make it short this time.....not:)

you say :our daily existence burdened with sorrow, could be a real 'desert crossing' and even if you will ever find your way out, there is nobody to guarantee that,

well this is so true ..! and it may be the very "essence" of all this journey between birth and death of the body-personal mind...then I seek shelter=war (sorry for the short short cut) or pain forces me not to seek , because I may see that pain comes from some seeking...if the second prevail well good luck indeed as I see no forecast of any kind.
And yet in moment when crossing the desert there is this tiny light that it is right , because some relief so goodness is there as well...it seems like another dimension in fact...I mean it..

John Raica wrote:
In fact the whole collective and individual karma cannot be so easily by-passed, your lengthy comments are a living proof.

yes absolutely , and I really honestly , doubtfully and critically find that I have some qualities for it and no other choice as well ..due to this events in my past you know about, as I know that all this is looking in the right direction and still it remains so "difficult" indeed. But the length of comment in my view is not length at all..it is usual for me in any subject and here it is usually the result of nearly two hours writing and re writing to try to make sense, if it does ??
But I prefer the direct chat , there is no comparison at all with writing.
there is bliss , there is pain , what is wrong ?

John Raica wrote:
K's particular transition, actually a 'huge leap forward' could have been triggered and sustained by vast logistical efforts from higher Intelligences - the official bio contain more than sufficient proof of this.

yes it is a strong possibility and again I have the experience that it is really possible..not any more my actuality , my actuality is to find this "doing" which I need, my task ??? when there is no choice somehow it is easier :) it is like a pendulum oscillating between too much disturbance and the relief of it..each time it brings understanding....may be I signed up for this job ::)) when I could have chosen to be the top man of the pyramid.....<:)

John Raica wrote:
For you, Dan the Man, the present it brought was...sorrow. Incidentally, K told once his close disciples " Be grateful that you have been given sorrow"

yes agree ,and I may totally fail in this which is ok as it concerns myself and there is only left indeed the need to keep taking care of the kids up to what is possible which is naturally done, sometimes I worry for myself but I know that it is my right approach so far, as it had already worked in the worse possible disturbance.
Then well ....??? I deeply look...:) sorrow is very powerful in me because the huge bliss was there twice so deeply that it leaves no doubt at all about the wrong way which I am still in too of course.. Often I say we are 100 % wrong because I know it...it is impossible to be more wrong,whatever anyone says to me.

and because since childhood I have this constant awareness of the insane state of the all world without watching any news , as well as I was given a vision of today's world when I was 12...then days after days , years after years all came true ...my vision stops at what we are up to now , now I don't know any more , does it means it is now wide opened ? I think so...A deep radical change is in our hands and may occurs...as well as doomsday of course.
john , I know how it sounds :)

John Raica wrote:
This is the 'trick' I've 'stolen' from K and later confirmed by my own inner experience ( believe me, it works ): let it lie there and have a New start; no amount of hard-work in trying to clean up this huge 'garbage heap' inherited from our previous generations will help. Abandon it without looking back and start anew.

yes I see what you say ,and I do believe you.
It may be my actuality at some stage but not now as so far it does not work for me.. the hidden has started to be revealed ,this process cannot be stopped so I must understand all that , which is slowly happening but very clumsily communicated in writing ...
I was showed in 3D the mechanical functioning of a part of the mind as well as the unconscious mind where I saw stored our real motives which are so ignored by the analytical mind, this is why we don't understand much when we analyse because we don't use the part of the mind which is REALLY in charge through its hidden motives

Again disturbance as a symptom and catalyst is there as a helper .

The all "idea" I am up to is to find "something" about the awakening of what I call the "other brain" , a "doing" which could eventually be used and-or told up to the limits of communication and analysing. The self has a part to play in all that...

Again disturbance and how to deal with it is what I mention here..
I insist that intellect or-and words are of no much help at all even if clever , even if logical , the other brain needs to be opened for me , I am sure of that..and if there were not such a possibility then I should stop right now before to go totally nuts, but I feel there is , as I had lived it..
nevertheless this could be a last illusion , another last lie ..the Occam razor ..as long as I am not military invading all countries and forcing all people to blindly follow this , it is fine...::))

To go beyond analytical walls and quest for steadiness is what I am up to...So far well I saved myself and am in a position of amazing refusal of our society in all its aspects (business,values,school,money,competition and all of it , indeed the case of much more people than we would imagine),it is totally uncomfortable but I cannot help.
What I see so far is quite simple indeed , the goodness seems to be there ,not gone as you imply .. it is nearly as if so little seems to happen when the mind is at peace...the goodness in bliss is in everyone and everything , there are neither small nor "big" things..comparison have stopped. But the descriptive is quite useless.

John Raica wrote:
Abandon it without looking back and start anew. This past will certain follow you, closer than your shadow, but if you are aware of its potential intrusion even in the most banal thoughts... well there is a chance that you can stay one step ahead of sorrow.

Not possible for me...yet ..The mind may need to be cleansed from hidden influences of hidden cravings..like in the real world the real leaders are hidden too...it means that the non conscious is revealing itself to the all mind by using high disturbances as a catalyst..this is where-when the magic happens...

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Fri, 25 Nov 2011.

Today's quote has an interesting thing for obsevation with regard to making an effort,If the entire public talk of jk from which this quote is taken into consideration.There shall be a parodoxical situation with regard to making an effort, unless the quote is understood in its full context.The last part of the talk is as follows:

......It is to be lived.It demands great persistance and constant purposefullness......

Where are we to make effort, and where are we not make effort?

I am that Iam.

Hello kamarajugadda....I found your last words good for some interesting questioning..

There is , logically speaking at least, a constant present always in movement, where life is, so all what is,whether it is matter or not , the known by me and the unknown by me.
"I" wants to freeze that , "I" cannot live the constant change as it likes to watch the same movie all the time , but if Mother Nature is pure intelligence , this should not be a problem..
"I" wants to turn this movement of life in the present in a steady immovable situation , such a life is a constant battle , this battle is lost from the very beginning by this "I"....an image , one night "I" sees the moon in the sky and decides that the moon does not exist...the moon remains of course and "I" gets totally nuts because it is trying to act in a field where it cannot do anything, on something too true, too big, too beyond the petty "I"..same for the death meaning "no continuity" so for "I" this is lived as a permanent threat to its desire to live forever.

"I" needs a shelter and food, here "I" can do something , still it can be wrong as well. "I" alone is not intelligent , but has random capacities.When "I" sees nuclear possibilities it does not mean that it has to use it , but having no clue of a wholly life it does ,then we have Hiroshima ( 1 second = 100 000 death, fukushima and so on..)

"I" is permanently fighting the present which never freezes, this demands constant effort to negate the truth of it.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:

Krishnamurti: >It demands great persistence and constant purposefulness......

well in a life which is constant movement that is obvious is not it?

Then back to the quote : That is, when the mind is stripped of all illusion or ignorance it is able to discern the infinite present. It is a thing which you cannot explain, you cannot reason about. It is beyond all argument. It has to be experienced

for me effort is the will of "I" to reach something, in that sense to built my house requires physical efforts , to dig my garden too , but this physical effort is meaningful so the purpose is obviously intelligent ( from Latin intelligere meaning understanding by direct experience....etc..)...is it still an effort when the motive is meaningful: feeding and taking care of the body ?

then what ? life is constantly in movement and "I" is permanently fighting that.
"I" is using all the energy in the fight ....we end up in misery whether poor or rich , the rich is even more in pain and hatred(it is even so obvious on their face) because he has reach so called man's purpose of life and what does he see ? nothing but sorrow and this unbearable fear of the end ..then he thinks suicide or vengeance towards humanity, this is what leads al our small or big leaders, pain and vengeance for their pain, another way to scapegoat themselves...

Sorrow results in the fight with life,( what is/what should be) when there is one spark of intelligence left we take this subject , on one hand is this movement of life which is yet some intellectual but logical guess ), on the other is the attempt to freeze anything , in the middle is sorrow, pain, hopelessness, cravings, fear and so on..

It is obvious that sorrow is the gap between what is and what should be , and this journey as k says requires great persistence and constant purposefulness of course because life is persistent and full of purpose..
as both life and "I" , "I" which is part of it but has no clue of that, are constant, both are constantly turned on...the mischief comes from the misuse of "I" expanding its capacities to the whole life , as k put it : a fragment takes it over.

Now how to deal with this painful trap ? Well this is where normality is useless..
Personal journey is required , no words including k's or Buddha's or anyone is enough , having said that some words telling real experience may be so useful and as the light can always come from unexpected situation ,we shall use what we have and words like analytical brain are part of it....when "I" sees that pain arises from its conduct , "I" has enough intelligence to stop the wrong direction...its intelligence of seing facts will tell itself that : oh my god I am the pain...

In this I don't see effort as such, yes as K put it persistence and purposefulness, beyond the necessary physical time where "I" is located...

Dan.

The all Sunday quote :

For most people this is the problem: merely to wait, marking time; or to be able to discern the true significance of life with its conflicts and sorrows, and not create a new set of stupidities, a new set of illusions, and therefore to live directly and simply. The one leads to utter disorder, superficiality, boredom, to such superficial lives as most people lead, whether in the intensity of work or in the lack of work. The other, to the ecstasy of immortality.

Everywhere there is a despair, waiting for some action, waiting for governments to change conditions. And, in the meantime, your own lives are becoming more and more superficial, shallow, with all the inanities of modern society and the inanities of the so-called spiritual people.
As I said in the very beginning of my talk, intelligence is the only solution that will bring about harmony in this world of conflict, harmony between mind and heart in action. No system, the mere alteration of environment, is ever going to free man from ignorance and illusion, which are the cause of suffering. You yourself, through your own awareness, in your own completeness, can discern the true significance of these many limiting barriers. This alone will bring about lasting intelligence, which shall reveal immortality.

Today as usual but much worse due to more "efficiency" the all world where you can meet many genuine "good" people (not the opposite of bad people) is under the clear threat of this empire with two heads like the two towers in The Lord of the ring , one tower is SAUron the other is SArUman the satellite of SAUron , which present themselves as the "good people" , nearly "elected" by some god of their fantasy killing at will anyone being in their way, but strangely especially where there is oil and many other things to steal...a business mafia is clearly leading the world and it has become so powerful with weapons and money control through a few banks and so confidently insane that the worse is possible.. goodness too, the world is like one man , if one man goes and understand the all wrongness this may affect the all global mind too..."It may" affect in goodness is my feeling as a matter of........feeling..!!Like for one, the sorrow if understood may lead to freedom from it so to goodness, same for the planet..The global perturbation is maybe our last chance to grow up.

Why ? because they have no clue in fact about what they are up to , they are in deep suffering like all of us but at a scale which is reaching pure insanity out of a life of nonsense , and even after having reached the pinnacle of their own meaning of life ,as is not enough and never will be , they simply find themselves even more empty, more in pain , with one single promise: they too are going to die...so they are accelerating the escape like us, when we all should stay with what is.

My last kid , he is seven came to give me a big hug at 6.00 am and went back to bed, he is a promise of a good earth,not better but good, he is smiley ,caring , cooperative and when he goes too far in bothering the group or anyone, when clearly showed explained about it, he gets the point and well really changes in his ways,and we all get big hugs and all of it ..has this kid like billions of kids a future on this insane earth ????? not sure at all to be honest..if we keep the way of competition, profit, business and money.

Today you are a hunter or a prey...and when someone smiles at you be careful ,he is willing to profit from you ( when it is not the case well then we friendly meet) , nevertheless the neo con (ex Trotsky..same people) says :that is the way it is, and if we are capable to talk it is only to explain that we are right to kill, the universe has one purpose which is to give birth to a killer so we kill.....don't ask more to a member of the empire, they have not much more to say in fact..apart from mentioning old dusty fairy books as a justification for their attitude, but truth has no need for justification, so they know they are wrong....we live it and back to K.

K:

The one leads to utter disorder, superficiality, boredom, to such superficial lives as most people lead, whether in the intensity of work or in the lack of work.

whatever we do does not change the mind is what I understand here..

K:

The other, to the ecstasy of immortality.

for me it is important to know the outer insanity, an open mind would know it out of intelligent curiosity anyway.This leaves no hope at all actually , no hope in the sense fighting back to win ,knowing that is already the beginning of understanding of the "wrong" way: the truth is somewhere else.
Can I fight this evil empire with the same gun ? NO , as it is obviously ready to kill billions which again is good for business.

K:

And, in the meantime, your own lives are becoming more and more superficial, shallow, with all the inanities of modern society and the inanities of the so-called spiritual people.

Modern society , what is modern indeed ? the tools ok yes..Still as a cabinet maker when I closely have a look to a real old piece of furniture like 250 years old and a brand new one, one looks like dull dead plastic when the other is clearly alive...the guy who made it 250 years ago (hard time too) has left his soul in it...in fact I am saying that there is regression in practical fields , even if , apparently , more efficiently done..( cars, atomic weapons ....)

As a chef I do all my food ,and well the one bought and mine(or any skilled cook) seem to come from different planets....There is obviously no need for meat at all , so it is great to know how to produce nice good vegetarian food which could easily feed the all world . n the meantime a kid at school is learning fake history,e=mc2, where is located the north pole , how to make smelly blue suffocating smoke in a tube , and basically how to fight or cheat others..yes this is school ,to give value to any kid , and person is a crime...but we vote for that...then when it goes wrong we cry...but from the beginning it was meant to end up that way..for god sake this is so obvious :::(((

But all this is originated from an empty frightened mind ,nevertheless in this anger of the morning ,right and necessary anger towards an ugly world in my views,alas what is wrong remains.

Krishnamurti

:As I said in the very beginning of my talk, intelligence is the only solution that will bring about harmony in this world of conflict, harmony between mind and heart in action. No system, the mere alteration of environment, is ever going to free man from ignorance and illusion, which are the cause of suffering

Bear in mind that for k ,heart means the all mind , I have red this in a quote here some month ago.

We are ignorant and live in illusion says K and this is suffering...
after all those words I have the impression to start again this journey within..

suffering is the best companion in life for all of us, with some moment in forgetfulness when busy , winning , pleasure or any other means.
For me suffering leads to at least 3 possibilities: suicide , war , understanding so awakening..suicide/war is the same for me, so it leads to only two possibilities :the violent premature death out of pain or the awakening in goodness.

It may be time to entirely take suffering into account as THE only way and there may be no other path than this one , which for me makes perfect sense as frankly do you see any other means to put the self down to its knees than to show it that self leadership IS the creator of the pain ????

The drowning into it , like my favourite recurrent dream shows me more and more often , is the magic trick I seek to understand , not to reach but understand...
While I walk on the shore and feel good but very intense, the tension of someone who knows that an event is going to happen, all of a sudden I become aware of what is going to happen...the water level is going to increase rapidly, not like a tsunami at all but the level simply rises then I know that it is so big that I am surely going to drown into it...
So far in the dream I have still refused to totally drown into the water, I have not let it totally go out of survival panic, then I wake up not even in fear anymore , but just knowing that I have not "done" the right thing..
The dream coming from depth so not from the analytical level tells me each time : this is what you have to do...the water (all what life is ) is too big , too immense , and your fight is wrong, let you be submerged by the water
...the water is the goodness of life and my fight so resistance is the fact of this part of the brain good at building house and at making tools , gardening and so on...those means have become a kind of "meaning of life" as alive as my computer...

into the water of life difficult it is to drown ( my master Ioda mask!)

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Sun, 27 Nov 2011.

Dear Sri John Raica!

Once you were recommending, remaining in the state of not knowing. is that not contradictory to today's quote?

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

my quote of the day from here:

• The unconscious, although that word conveys the idea of something hidden that you are not aware of, is still part of the known; it is the past. You may not know the whole content of the unconscious; you may not have examined it, looked at it, but you have probably had dreams, intimations of that vast underground region of the mind. It is there, and it is the known because it is the past. In it there is nothing new, and we must understand for ourselves what is involved in that state which is not new, because innocence is freedom from the known.

I am in the mood to be critical not on purpose but because in my relative view I see a motive of serious doubt about how k put things in words sometimes in a catch 22 manner ,again in my view: He so often says don't come to any conclusion, this is weird to be so define then like :the unconscious is still part of the known...

Then he brings us into the ultimate achievement : to reach this innocence which is freedom from the known , because in the known there is nothing new...this can be absolutely true and so what to a man who is lost in sorrow ???

Then with such saying, in my opinion, you can be caught in a catch 22 for in life...seeking for the new in opposition to the known. Bingo!! would say Rick ::))

So I question K in his way of saying..he dismisses the unconscious, the dreams , everything but freedom from the known, which of course is going to be captured by this analytical process as a new goal in life....

Sorry to disturb, but I have been caught in this catch 22 brought by k for so many years( I wasted years in the darkness of believing I knew something, my fault too of course) that sometimes I question his ability to convey properly..and mine to get his point too. Words are dangerous in the sense :will the man listening even carefully will get what was said ?

It is more maybe in a step by step in talks that we can start and stay in a journey into man's insanity and sorrow..and beyond that ..

Talking about hypothetical unconscious if I have not experienced it , is useless for me..
First I guess then I seek if my guess as a reality...
Let me say that I have some first hand experience about this unconscious , who cares at first if it is in the known ? I don't myself..this is too early to reach such a conclusion in a journey when I am not there. K in my view had been too absolute sometimes ...and this can produce total not understanding at all.

What am I going to say about what is not conscious that I find rather important to tell others about , not to show up how great I am, but just because the feeling it is important is there. ( a usual set up attitude of this self so think its view is THE view so we keep a doubt here)
In dreams like many and in the daytime like many we have encounter what can be called the revealing of the unconscious , not in a psycho bla bla bla sense.
The intimate contact with it, whatever it is, usually produces something deeper than our usual analytical superficiality does ( insights, relief,understanding ,goodness and so on)...all this is wipe away by k......not absolute enough !!The unconscious becomes the first encounter with "something else" than the usual superficial analytical self....

It seems to me so far in the way I "lived" that (so is just relative) that some of this not conscious level for the self has stored many unsolved problems , why how ? here I don't care because it is there and I take it, I don't explain.
these problems are possibly creating the strongest sorrows of our lives in order to shake our dull sheltered craving mind is what I say about this not conscious.

Then as a symptom first(I feel the disturbance = something is wrong ,and after as a catalyst(free to be it by pass the dictatorship of the self) , the energy which is in sorrow is willing to tell all its story about sorrow, how is it created, how does it start , and shows the exact location where it is stored , this is then a direct and deep contact with the problem , and for some reasons I have absolutely no clue about, the direct contact wipes away the sorrow so the problem is solved, there is relief, eventually joy , goodness, understanding......simply put this is what happens: I am disturb and let if free, this may show the all of what sorrow is, the seing that some hidden for the usual self cravings brings pain , some unknown process wipe them away and all what goes with it like relief, joy , understanding , bliss and so on....

then k ends its words with this :and we must understand for ourselves what is involved in that state which is not new, because innocence is freedom from the known.

I would myself put a lot more of emphasis on this last point ,well he did mentioned yes but nearly too casually, in my view with not enough strength to "interest" the reader in this matter...as it shows more about this new and freedom from the known which with so few words just looks like another goal to reach, in my view only::))

this was my critic of the day......the need to be very careful when reading him is then obvious, the words are great , we feel he is not fake, remain a great danger to be lost in it with no understanding....

The contact with this not conscious for the analytical self is a vital point in my own journey as I see it , it seems to bring some light in the dark... it is clearly one step....this not conscious when it is felt as such wants to talk , to reveal itself ,when it does it is solving problems ,well this is not small at all because problems brings sorrow, sorrow brings the superficial mind to escape from them , then we go at war and are today on the verge of a total collapse because this not conscious is not perceived at all...k reality may have been to be nearly permanently in touch with THE GROUND of all ,the incommensurable bliss, the no path ,the truth ...we need in my view to start with sorrow which seems to be a motive of our seeking and a source of insanity due to the pain and the attempt to escape from it...on the path to the no path ,we will meet the not conscious for the self , then we will see from there...

anyone k included can not properly convey what he is intending to say...

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Sun, 04 Dec 2011.

'k' said:
You put an end to that insight when you draw a conclusion which you perceive through the insight.

ganesan balachandran wrote:
remaining in the state of not knowing. is that not contradictory to today's quote?

The way I am seeing it, Ganesan, is that at the time when K was making this statement he might not have been fully aware of the psychological state of his audience, like a high level teacher for whom everything is clear and easy, might not fully realise that he is speaking to a class of otherwise handicapped students. In fact their actual handicap may be...that they think they know, or they know too much. So; the K statement is true for the level he is at, but it may not be practical for students heavily loaden with knowledge; gathering, organising and using knowledge goes in one direction, while dropping the past may go in the opposite one. But telling people already aboard on a train speeding to 'more of everything' about starting in a totally another direction...you have the gist of the quote of this day.

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day

New York City | 3rd Public Talk 15th March, 1935

Question: Do you advocate renunciation and self-abnegation as a means of finding personal happiness?

Krishnamurti: Personal happiness does not exist. So there are no means to it. There is only the creative ecstasy of life, whose expressions are many. This idea of sacrifice, renunciation, self-abnegation, is false. You think that happiness is to be found through giving up certain things, following certain actions. So you are really trading in, exchanging your sacrifice, your abnegation, for happiness. There is no abnegation or renunciation, but only understanding; and in that there is creative happiness which is not personal, individualistic.

Let me put it differently. I begin to accumulate because I think happiness lies through accumulation, but I find at the end of a certain time that possession does not bring me happiness. Therefore I begin to renounce possessions and try to possess and pursue abnegation; which is only another form of acquisitiveness. But if I discern the inherent significance of possessiveness, then in that there is creative happiness.

in a sense happiness is just another seeking for me , a seeking which very motive is not seen , felt , perceived..but for sure is the opposite of a huge dislike of which there is no perception at all.

The idea is probably as usual a running away ,a psychological one plus a mixture of hidden fears, perverted instinct cravings , and the all shebang gets totally confused , closer to suicide like way of life than heaven , but with one main idea : survival , the idea of surviving which I find as well perverted,as man to survive will kill...this is perverted, there is nothing in it, but a mechanical reaction with no meaning at all , for me today, my view may change as this happens of course...and please don't compare with other animals, as they eat to survive under mother natures rules,when we kill to kill...as to survive we have been gifted in order to do it peacefully , but again we have perverted all what we had been given.

this deep bliss which met me as I told here sometimes ,is not in happiness, this is again true from K .It is not in joy either, joy is the relief of the self when it is content of some achievement .
But when the deep bliss is there , there is no happiness, no joy but deep "something" different ( no word fits), which no anticlimax after, no need to mention unless the talk needs it to be told..

Today I feel with my hand as it is so thick , the deep trouble we are in,and as k put it all what we have done is a failure...so this is pretty normal and was predictable thousands of years ago....in fact man's mind has not changed at all, indeed...and like in a personal case the trouble will lead to suicide, mass killing , violence or....the awakening of the other brain....it is time to bet, as this is one of our main activity in case we could win something :(

Dan

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Mon, 12 Dec 2011.

Nothing really personal here...just an impression about today's quote, Dec 27. So, to recap it: 1. We ( or is it me ?) have invented a system called "religion' 2. Through our (collective ?) demand for security. 3. Has become so powerful that 4. very few free themselves of the weight of crushing tradition and authority.....

Sounds pretty non-conformistic for the spiritually conformistic 1930's but frankly who cares today, in 2011 about the structures of organised religion with the exception of those still making a living out of them ? ( won't name names). K is adressing...a lot of dead people ( literally) So, are we still sharing such ideas with the dead ? Or is it just a computer fluke?
Which raises the question: are such sayings eternally true or do they have an expiry date ( Best before DD, MM, YYYY). And last but not the least, they are adressed to whom? Is it an injunction for the collective consciousness of last century, or does it apply to a modern individual consciousness ? If so, then should we remind each and everyone that things are changing, even in the stream of collective thought, even great systems of belief, concepts, paradigms and ideas can (and do) get old ? I'll leave these unanswered questions for those 'activistically inclined' who took the initiative of publishing such quotes

Wednesday quote:

As long as one is a slave to unexplored, unquestioned environment and values, both past and present, they must pervert the completeness of action. This perversion is the cause of conflict between the individual who is seeking security, and the many; between the individual and the continual movement of experience.

Will I be alive tomorrow ? will I have food? will I survive forever ?
to those questions the personal computer needs some absolute and define answers....if it is a lie it is OK as all is virtual..like the plan for a house.

I am caught in this , then again will the process enslaved by itself will "free" itself from itself by thinking it over ?

I have found so many conclusions all hidden from the superficiality of the analytical self, as deep as a pond when what is has no beginning and no end so is limitless (my lucky guess)....
Then so far I see the need to "reach" or to "reveal" those "hidden from the self " lairs...where all the trouble of conflict is , under the shape of very actives conclusions, nearly always wrong and impossible... the self seems to have zero capacities in this matter
then the cleansing can start and I have no clue of what is next..

having said that it seems to show this quite often: most desires used as what is directing life are wrong , because there should be used by "something else" and come in second position....this is not a discovery in words, the seeing of it at a different level in the psyche brings the needed change....self will never solve man's problems caught in never ending conflict, fear and pain...and this is not a discovery either...

I wonder if taking the path of disturbance is not the only one....any views on this..?

cheers..

Dan.

Dan.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
I wonder if taking the path of disturbance is not the only one

Not sure Dan, As its name says, it could lead to more disturbance. Even if 'our man K'is often encouraging it...he was not living along these lines , his mind was fully ( ?) envelopped in an aura of heavenly peace and love ( this is my lucky guess) . Some may even call it a 'very special gift'. So, if our goal is inner peace...we might as well start putting some foundations of peace and serenity. Some may ask how ? For starters, how about dropping off a lot of inner conflicts and other mental activities which we usually believe they will be learning opportunities ? The conflictual learning about oneself can lead to a painfully acquired volume of knowledge. With it we can write a book or two...and become 'champions of ego - psychology', but will this dissipate our inner disturbances ?

John Raica wrote:

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
I wonder if taking the path of disturbance is not the only one

john: Not sure Dan, As its name says, it could lead to more disturbance. Even if 'our man K' is often encouraging it...he was not living along these lines , his mind was fully ( ?) enveloped in an aura of heavenly peace and love ( this is my lucky guess) .

John , worthy questions of course !
Don't forget that I mean disturbance as a symptom and a catalyst , meaning that in itself it is only a mean towards something else...

As to k I don't know if he was fully ( ?) enveloped in an aura of heavenly peace and love ...permanently ; it may be so of course :).

disturbance leads to more disturbance when its "message" is not understood yes.....

well hard to say...but worthy to talk about...

Dan.

John Raica wrote:
The conflictual learning about oneself can lead to a painfully acquired volume of knowledge. With it we can write a book or two...and become 'champions of ego - psychology', but will this dissipate our inner disturbances ?

as long as disturbance is not free to do its job, my lucky guess is that the "status quo" will remain..

Dan.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
as long as disturbance is not free to do its job

That, Dan would be the hypothesis that the patient is basically healthy and the symptoms and a few disturbances such as fever and back aches will point to their cause, namely some kind of flu or other. But this hypothesis that 'man is basically healthy' may not be 100% correct in terms of the human psyche. Having decided to live within the gilded prison of the known might have been a great idea for the Neanderthal people, living amidst so much danger it might have been the only option, a safe defensive attitude. Since then, this forgotten choice for safety within the known has dragged behind itself a lot of other causes and effects leading to todays isolative , self-centred consciousness. A lot of ongoing disturbances going on there, emphasised by the disturbances caused by outer factors. So...I am afraid that even if we would let all these 'tell their story' we would need more years than we can afford to live. Again, it may be a matter of choice or preferences but personally I would rather go for starting inner peace and harmony now, even with all the disturbing background going on. Even logically it makes sense, the right ends deserve the right means.

John Raica wrote:
personally I would rather go for starting inner peace and harmony now, even with all the disturbing background going on..

hello john....I get your point and it makes sense.

John Raica wrote:
Even logically it makes sense, the right ends deserve the right means.

John Raica wrote:

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
as long as disturbance is not free to do its job.

John: That, Dan would be the hypothesis that the patient is basically healthy and the symptoms and a few disturbances such as fever and back aches will point to their cause, namely some kind of flu or other.

yes kind of...but psychologically so far it says this , unless I don't understand..
hidden (from the self) desires which are indeed leading our lives are basically wrong in that position of leaders.
Disturbance reveals them eventually and leave some vague knowledge about some "doing" in this matter.Immediately the wrongness of mankind is there to be totally seen....we are so wrong that we don't see it, as it is too big...too huge...

life is the miracle, surviving is good enough.....

sorry to be so vague and short for once, but I am still in the middle of a change of country and this nowadays requires a huge amount of paperworks....Please to keep the talk; as I find it interesting...

cheers

Dan

Dan.