http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Mystic_Musing...

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Krishnamurti: To understand that, one must understand the whole content of consciousness. Now, you have to understand the fact, not what consciousness is according to somebody - whether that somebody is a great saint or great teacher or whatever he is. You have to understand the consciousness which is you - not in terms of what you have learned from some book or from what you have been told - you have to observe. And that is what we are going to do, if you will follow what I am going to say.

This whole consciousness is of time - time being thought, thought being the response of memory, memory being the past, the past moving through the present to the future in a limited way or in an expansive way. The whole structure of the conscious as well as the unconscious is in the framework of time - time being not only chronological time but also psychological time. That is a fact, whether you agree or disagree; it is not a matter of agreement or disagreement; it is so.

We have divided this consciousness as the superficial and the hidden. The superficial is the educated mind, the modern mind - it goes to the office, however bored it is; it passes examinations; it has certain technological knowledge; it reads newspapers and reacts. That is the superficial mind. And then there is the hidden mind. The hidden mind is all the latent factors of the past; certain parts of it are awake, other parts of it are asleep.

I wish you would listen to this, actually observing your own state of consciousness. I am only using the words to describe; do not depend on the description, but watch it. Then you will go much further, deeply.

Now, how do we deal with the superficial fears? We either escape or take a drink or go to church or repeat some mantra or read a book. And reading a book, going to the temple, seeking God, or taking a drink are all the same because they are all escapes from the fact of the fears of which you are conscious.

Secondly, in regard to the unconscious with which we are not familiar, we have to get acquainted with it - and it is difficult. There is the hidden part of me, the hidden part of you with which you are not familiar, as familiar as you are with your conscious mind. To become familiar with it, to know all the contents of it, requires an attention, an observation which is attentive - not in terms of condemnation or justification, but merely attentive.

Attention is necessary in order to find out the whole content of the unconscious. I mean by attention a mind that is attentive without any subjective or objective condemnation, a mind which is merely attentive. I must go into the meaning of the word attentive. Because most of us do not know what it means; we know only what it is to be concentrated, to focus the attention, to focus the thought on a particular thing. And in that focusing of the thought on a particular thing, which is called concentration, there is an exclusive process - you are putting everything aside. Therefore, concentration is a form of resistance. Concentration is not attention because in attention there is no resistance. Attention can concentrate; even then, it is not exclusive.

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Wed, 11 Jan 2012.

Good morning...

for a while now, this "hidden " not so conscious, not so conscious by the superficial mind or the self or analytical brain as I like to name it , this "hidden" is in my view a key to have, to know about , to discover.
For me if I don't go into it, I will always be stuck in superficiality so in pain even if I try to put my good face.
Mind you the superficial seems to have its part to play of course, but it acts like any little chief and has the tendency to try to dominate everything, this includes as well where it has no capacities for it.
Now I am not far to "think" that this hidden ABSOLUTELY needs to be revealed,to go to the light of the wholly mind.
In my own experiences within the field of sorrow, so far I always have found the very same pattern which is this one : *pain was originated from hidden cravings, the superficial mind was taking the subject so it thought , but indeed it had not a single clue of what was going on , as the consciousness concerned with pain is not at all the superficial one, but , so I think, the not conscious one.

The result is dramatical because not one problem is ever tackled . By luck , when living troublesome times , this may forces the unconscious to be revealed, due to a self in distress so less strong, slightly weak, then the hidden consciousness, the one of the dreams and so on is revealed, and for me this is the only "doing" which has produced deep real transformation , understanding, insights and all of it. It seems to "work" this way , when this not superficial and hidden consciousness is revealed , this other part of the mind immediately tackle it and try to find out if the content of this hidden is pain , is sorrow. If so it is immediately seen, understood ,removed. This brings relief and a mind which for once and some times seems to function with intelligence. this is not for good as there may not be such a thing but undoubtedly brings some clarity and goodness.
Is it a "doing"? for me clearly yes.
this is what I am very much interested for vital reasons in my present time, so I would be interested in discussing about this , this unconscious revealed first by luck, then by drowning into what we call sorrow, discontentment, disturbance, all words describing the very same movement , the many words are only to describe a degree of the intensity felt, from light to very high....would we be seeking a way out of pain if there was no pain ?

This is my actual door step...

Dan.

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Wed, 11 Jan 2012.

to make all that shorter, what is driving us is totally ignored by the self which is trying to work on it , so it can't solve life insanity neither personal nor global, this is where the mind is stuck for centuries..life insanity is all content in the K's formula: the gap between what is and what should be, the universe does not allow us to go this way by having put pain in this corner, the lack of understanding of all that keeps us in hell, whether wealthy in money or not..

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Wed, 11 Jan 2012.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
the universe does not allow us to go this way by having put pain in this corner, the lack of understanding of all that keeps us in hell, whether wealthy in money or not..

So pain is not to be avoided, but welcomed and attentively listned to as to a wise and loving teacher.. It has someting important to tell us about life and living?

in a state of aesthetic curiosity

Per Götberg wrote:

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
the universe does not allow us to go this way by having put pain in this corner, the lack of understanding of all that keeps us in hell, whether wealthy in money or not..

Per : So pain is not to be avoided, but welcomed and attentively listened to as to a wise and loving teacher.. It has something important to tell us about life and living?

Hello Per and good to talk.

I exactly mean that with the usual but not mechanical necessary doubt . The doubt is coming from all previous mistakes, misunderstanding of all sorts having led to more problems, this thinking process is too often too quick to jump to any conclusions..

having said that , wise and loving teacher seems right to me....the pain is in the refusal ; the gap between what is and what should be...and so on...my personal huge subject those days..

Take care..

Dan.

Dan.

Per Götberg wrote:
It has someting important to tell us about life and living?

you also mean a partial handicap?but it teaches, sure ,till one get reduced or spiritually evolved.gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

ganesan balachandran wrote:

Per Götberg wrote:
It has someting important to tell us about life and living?

you also mean a partial handicap ? but it teaches, sure ,till one get reduced or spiritually evolved.gb

hi gb, I really wonder if this aspect of our lives, the one carefully avoid when possible is not the ONLY catalyst we have to start with ?????????????????

then yes if the point is not understood it destroy a life , lives....it is so a symptom, a catalyst and a kind of final countdown, this makes me tell as a matter of intellectual endearment that we have been left with all what is needed for us to get a life, but if we don't go the right way we probably are doomed as a species, and this is not said out of fear, anger and so on, but just out of the blue...as it now seems obvious to me...

nevertheless all this may be a trick of mine..:)

Dan.

Dan.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
nevertheless all this may be a trick of mine..:)

I too see like that.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
wise and loving teacher seems right to me....the pain is in the refusal

Good to talk to you too ol´man! Did not mean to suggest anything. Just wanted to check if my hearing was alright. And so it seems..

There is a significant difference in approaching problem and pain as a teacher that one might learn from or to approach it as one would ones prosecutor; one is the road to freedom and the other the road to prison.. We cannot afford to be victimised by circumstance do we? Better to be notknowing and learning than knowing and stagnated!

in a state of aesthetic curiosity

Per Götberg wrote:
There is a significant difference in approaching problem and pain as a teacher that one might learn from or to approach it as one would ones prosecutor; one is the road to freedom and the other the road to prison..

Good morning not so old man :))....
a problem , a pain is like earth, it is there ...then what ? or I fancifully loose myself in a mickey mouse world which does not exist or I do not. If so I do then it does not solve one single problem and the permanent fight against the universe has started and will end with the end of the body

The subject I have chosen here, the hidden from superficial self consciousness is a step ; hard to see, to be in touch with ,even when it has already happened . It is NOT a mechanical automatic process , it is different.
The approach of a problem and-or pain as a teacher requires humility , the humility which is there when the escaping has stopped , it is only a side effect to be humble, humility is the sign of an ego which has lost its arrogance because it has deeply discovered at least once that most of its doing are caught in pain, so it knows about its responsibility in the matter of hell on earth.

One is the road to prison you say , yes I see it that way too...but we leave it and talk about freedom, freedom from the self dictatorship ..

for me in my present, and may be it is more than for me in the present but much wider , there is no alternative but to bring to the light this unconscious , not unconscious by itself but unconscious because of the predominance like 99.99% of the self activities, then the first step will never occur so we are caught for life in gibberish of the metallic mind, and all its nasty effects covered up with a mask of joy , gold, money , power, possessions , and all of it..

Basically this self which refuses the end (or cannot deal with) is one of the greatest hidden unconscious craving , the problem is that the intellectual level of understanding of that does not bring anything,does not free the mind from it because it is the unconscious level where the craving is stored which shall deal with its own problems in its own way when it is the self, the superficial and analytical mind which is up to it, but it simply cannot do it...the analytical self will be limited to its own world and will not discover anything but work on the known , that is its function, nothing wrong with it, what is wrong is its imagination to be the Lord of the universe giving birth to nasty arrogant mind so people....

Per Götberg wrote:
We cannot afford to be victimised by circumstance do we? Better to be not knowing and learning than knowing and stagnated!

yes we cannot but nevertheless the analytical mind does it, exactly like a baby who is crying , which is fine when we are a baby of course ,but when a grow up adult well...running away , to be victimised seems to me the very same "doing" of a tool called the self, which is using what it knows to solve problems it does not know about.

as to "better to be not knowing and learning than knowing and stagnated" , I do not know Per.
Do we have a choice ? Do the lie to oneself works that much ? I do not think so indeed.

Dan.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote quoting k:
Now, how do we deal with the superficial fears? We either escape or take a drink or go to church or repeat some mantra or read a book. And reading a book, going to the temple, seeking God, or taking a drink are all the same because they are all escapes from the fact of the fears of which you are conscious.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote quoting k:
Secondly, in regard to the unconscious with which we are not familiar, we have to get acquainted with it - and it is difficult. There is the hidden part of me, the hidden part of you with which you are not familiar, as familiar as you are with your conscious mind. To become familiar with it, to know all the contents of it, requires an attention, an observation which is attentive - not in terms of condemnation or justification, but merely attentive.

I re quote that part from Krishnamurti, to go again into it , as it seems this is quite missed and as k put it we are not familiar with the hidden me..what could that be ? this hidden me seems less "stupid" , a key OK but to which door??

In fact I wonder if there are so many superficial fears which are really leading our lives, the self may think this way when it thinks to have found some fears or reasons by analysing WHAT IT KNOWS ONLY and thinks it may find why I feel like shit and so on, and I question the truth of that by saying that it may be possible that the REAL problems, cravings , desires are , concerning most if not all of them....HIDDEN in the unconscious ME that krishnamurti mentions here...see what is implied, self is useless.....but to fix the tap and yet....

This makes the self 100% useless in solving any problem other than technical and yet, it may be appalling in fixing technical problems..look at fukushima and many other technical problems where we clearly destroy the planet and man in the field of competence of this analytical ego.

I say this but it not as a guess , it is a matter of "deep" experience so far..some of my huge problems were found-revealed (by luck, by being the sorrow...) and solved by and in this unconscious, which for some reasons revealed itself to the light of the all mind in "special" moment, and this moment is amazingly "strong" as the vision of the hidden removes what is painful so wrong.....this brings relief from sorrow ,that is a fact.
Here is a point where WE can do something , it is not the "no path" to truth, but the way to solve sorrow and learn from it ,as it is teaching us.....oh my good Lord !!!::))

so the analytical self of the stored memory is 100 % useless in many fields? yes absolutely..

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Fri, 13 Jan 2012.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote quoting krishnamurti:<

Krishnamurti : Secondly, in regard to the unconscious with which we are not familiar, we have to get acquainted with it - and it is difficult. There is the hidden part of me, the hidden part of you with which you are not familiar, as familiar as you are with your conscious mind. To become familiar with it, to know all the contents of it, requires an attention, an observation which is attentive - not in terms of condemnation or justification, but merely attentive..

Dan: I am sorry not to discuss openly about this "unconscious", rather never mentioned or rarely when it is question of K writings, same here for me until this unconscious revealed itself in some occasions , when I can say this saved me from self inflicted hell , as hell is mankind achievement.

To put it simply but truly , this unconscious ( unnoticed , unknown by the analytical self) is where are stored the real deepest and strongest cravings and desires of all kind secretly leading my life, our life, yours too. This bunch of "me" is permanently comparing itself with what is , as what is is NEVER the same as the bunch of hidden "me"...any war is too an attempt to make what is fit with the what should be of some people.

When you feel this pressure at the stomach level , nearly permanent , I say this is this unconscious(from the self) which is trying to show itself , but unfortunately the superficial self is taking all subjects so prevents this unconscious to come up to the light of the whole mind. We are then stuck in the superficiality of the self process which alas cannot do anything beyond its memory and its cravings...

The pain was probably meant to wake us , shake us , for 10 000 if not 100 000 years it does not work at all but for the few Buddha, k and a bunch of people of that "kind".

What seems to happen in this "unconscious from the self" as far as I have seen it ?
However it happens sometimes one or some cravings , desires are totally perceived . My "opinion" , impression is that it is both the location and the content of one or more craving which is revealed. The self will NEVER find any , it cannot as it is beyond what it can "do".
Seeking to reveal the unconscious will never work in my view and coincidentally k's and many other view too, so all analysts are wrong ( we are all analysts in fact then) as k put it sometimes with a grumpy mood, which I totally share.

By luck or not , by letting the pain free and more,some of this hidden bunch of "me" can cross the safe border that the self is trying to permanently built. It is a random discovery time , already there is the feeling that there is no method 1+2 =3 , which is the analytical method with a predefine goal, the trap of mankind in the physical world , but another "doing", different . This is why I often mention suffering as a symptom and a catalyst because the use of it is not to seek at all but to let the energy which is in suffering acts according to its way, way "I" have no control on it, it is clearly a different "part" of the mind . But as k put it one fragment takes it over ...

All becomes more vague , unpredictable(the nightmare of the self so man) and there is Goodness and relief in this corner, in the analytical corner never...
Suffering or disturbance may be a constant kind shepherd for us in fact , q direct link with the depth of life , the one unreachable...especially for the self ,as we clearly see that if this self could control the whole of life , the entire universe would be gone by now and would be left absolutely nothing..

All what I have seen working so far is the link between pain and a craving, when the craving is painful it is removed...........................

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Sat, 14 Jan 2012.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote quoting k:
.......Now, how do we deal with the superficial fears? We either escape or take a drink or go to church or repeat some mantra or read a book. And reading a book, going to the temple, seeking God, or taking a drink are all the same because they are all escapes from the fact of the fears of which you are conscious.
Secondly, in regard to the unconscious with which we are not familiar, we have to get acquainted with it - and it is difficult. There is the hidden part of me, the hidden part of you with which you are not familiar, as familiar as you are with your conscious mind. To become familiar with it, to know all the contents of it, requires an attention, an observation which is attentive - not in terms of condemnation or justification, but merely attentive.

I re re post the subject ,if K knows about this unconscious "me" and I deeply feel he does I find it vital.
unconscious which I think I know some of it , and we all do at least because for me the true meaningful dreams come from this part of the mind as well as all "weird" unexplained (and it is great) understanding or situation which are "different" .

if we-I only are using the superficial by nature (in itself nothing wrong as such yet) self caught in a catch 22 of "give me more",better,and so on, then caught in running away from fears , then it has not one single clue about how to solve them, then the catch 22 is for the all life...

Would not it be wise to consider what K is mentioning here about the unconscious "me".
I just recently got some awareness about it, not by reading k , then I search in k writings about it, and as usual it was in its writings :)

The superficial self has no goodness at all ; it is empty in this matter ,and it is easy to understand that it was not meant for that.
The unconscious "me" already have some goodness in itself, the goodness of a mind which can solve problems so sorrow...the hidden "me" seems at least to have one capacity when it is turned on, so when the self for some reasons let it go just a bit.

It seems to work ish by using its capacity to "walk back" to the root of any problem ( or by letting the problem coming up to the surface).
When there it clearly understands and knows that if there is the disturbance of sorrow, discontentment,fear and all of it, this hidden "me" removes it straight away because it knows that then it is wrong, this already tells that life is not meant to be spent in psychological suffering...again suffering takes its full meaning here, it is not in our lives to push us to suicide but to help.

Without the acquaintance with this hidden , well, me, you ,them , we are just lost.

Having understood a bit of this somehow is not yet enough and far from it, then the K words : we have to get acquainted with it - and it is difficult. take their full meaning...

Dan.

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Thu, 19 Jan 2012.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote quoting K:

Secondly, in regard to the unconscious with which we are not familiar, we have to get acquainted with it - and it is difficult. There is the hidden part of me, the hidden part of you with which you are not familiar, as familiar as you are with your conscious mind. To become familiar with it, to know all the contents of it, requires an attention, an observation which is attentive - not in terms of condemnation or justification, but merely attentive

I re-quote this,as I am willing to talk about it in a sharing way, this can be one vital clue, not to be missed...please not to be taken it as coming in an arrogant way of a man who think it knows, I played this trick 30 years ago and it nearly killed myself.:)

Any experience on this unconscious "hidden part of the me" ?

Dan.

And one more coat about this "unconscious":-)....nose!

“Sorrow is grief, uncertainty, the feeling of complete loneliness. There is the sorrow of death, the sorrow of not being able to fulfil oneself, the sorrow of not being recognized, the sorrow of loving and not being loved in return. There are innumerable forms of sorrow, and it seems to me that without understanding sorrow, there is no end to conflict, to misery, to the everyday travail of corruption and deterioration.................

There is conscious sorrow, and there is also unconscious sorrow, the sorrow that seems to have no basis, no immediate cause. Most of us know conscious sorrow, and we also know how to deal with it. Either we run away from it through religious belief or we rationalize it, or we take some kind of drug, whether intellectual or physical; or we bemuse ourselves with words, with amusements, with superficial entertainment. We do all this, and yet we cannot get away from conscious sorrow*...........................

Then there is the unconscious sorrow that we have inherited through the centuries. Man has always sought to overcome this extraordinary thing called sorrow, grief,misery; but even when we are superficially happy and have everything we want, deep down in the unconscious there are still the roots of sorrow. So when we talk about the ending of sorrow, we mean the ending of all sorrow, both conscious and unconscious......................

.............To end sorrow one must have a very clear, very simple mind. Simplicity is not a mere idea. To be simple demands a great deal of intelligence and sensitivity.”

—J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life

Dan.

And I kind of find ,well more this hidden which reveals itself under some circumstances , that there is our own built unconscious sorrow. Unconscious I say ?
unconscious from the point of view of our usual daily analytical brain, watching itself,watching within the field where it is functioning, not beyond, probably only a kind of "technical matter", and I really mean that.

Any too heavy troubled time had been solved only when this unconscious became conscious, or showed itself for some undefined reasons, like to be too disturb may lead to suicide or "reveal" the hidden where deep unsolved problems are stored....

Mind you, I think so far that it is the process it self which is painful and not the content or the subject itself, I really can lead a suicidal life just because secretly I don't get the red Ferrari I want or because I have a big nose

See what is implied? the content is of little importance, the process ,the functioning is sorrowful in itself.
There is everyday life, as a child it can be OK or fine, then between 10 and let us say 20 ish, I start craving for anything randomly, I succeed sometimes and I fail sometimes.All failures seems to be stored somewhere not easy or at all accessible by this analytical mind ,somewhere else is the impression through what has happened ....is it the same for all ? I have no clue , but this is a lie as I have a clue but induce here the necessary doubt...

Then I can really waste all the energy in searching analytically to solve problems , to understand when this "self" will never reach the location where all that hidden is stored in the mind....this s being caught in the net of self knowledge, incapable therefore to see beyond its own superficiality, this is a crucial problem that this unconscious hidden "me" ,a bunch of cravings which failed to be realized and drive us mad.

The unconscious seems to have healing capacities.............

Dan.

The Burden of the Unconscious

Inwardly, unconsciously, there is the tremendous weight of the past pushing you in a certain direction.
Now, how is one to wipe all that away? How is the unconscious to be cleansed immediately of the past? The analysts think that the unconscious can be partially or even completely cleansed through analysis, through investigation, exploration, confession, the interpretation of dreams, and so on; so that at least you become a 'normal' human being, able to adjust yourself to the present environment. But in analysis there is always the analyser and the analysed, an observer who is interpreting the thing observed, which is a duality, a source of conflict.
So I see that mere analysis of the unconscious will not lead anywhere. It may help me to be a little less neurotic, a little kinder to my wife, to my neighbour, or some superficial thing like that; but that is not what we are talking about. I see that the analytical process which involves time, interpretation, the movement of thought as the observer analysing the thing observed cannot free the unconscious; therefore I reject the analytical process completely. The moment I perceive the fact that analysis cannot under any circumstances clear away the burden of the unconscious, I am out of analysis. I no longer analyse. So what has taken place? Because there is no longer an analyser separated from the thing that he analyses, he is that thing. He is not an entity apart from it. Then one finds that the unconscious is of very little importance.

The Book of Life

Dan.

Well when re reading the last quote , I feel like saying a few things..!

So far when some unconscious is-was revealed by luck or through drowning into what we call suffering produced something "immediate" when like k says: there is no longer an analyser separated from the thing it analyses..then if it is really "done" immediately understanding, relief and more enter the life.

So far I always finds very hard to "see" this analyser/analysed he says well i was never really trying to understand anyway!, Once it was unexpectedly seen then the moment after it was gone, it seems not catchable as such to be put in the frozen prison of knowledge.It is too swift for that.

In drowning into the suffering means as I understand it right now , means the end of the observer and the observed so of analysing , it is really happening as such, as a fact not as a thinking, a guess and so on.

-There is suffering and me, or the observer and the observed ,which seems to be fighting, this is analysing.
-There is a wholly me in suffering....here the miracle of life may happen, I think.

The unconscious is of very little importance says k, but so far for "normal" people like me/us, is not it still very important in the sense that it is very much active , secretly ?It has to be seen, understood and see from there then.
One step at the time...I am born , then a kid , then an adult ,....and so on.

Dan.

Dan.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
, I am out of analysis. I no longer analyse. So what has taken place?

Hi, Dan, personally I have discarded self-analysis as sheer intellectual garbage about 40 years ago, nothing took place just because of that, since there are a lot of other deeper attachments.So, K did not know what he was talking about in this particular case ? Certainly he was speaking to people deeply involved in the search for truth or to psy's themselves: if you spend years in analysing or being analysed it might be such a relief to garbage it all. But most people do not have neither the leisure nor the money to do that( to get involved in the psycho game). So, maybe his rather enthusiastic statement was part of a 'Talk to a congress of psycho-analysts' ?

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
The moment I perceive the fact that analysis cannot under any circumstances clear away the burden of the unconscious, I am out of analysis. I no longer analyse. So what has taken place?

John Raica wrote:

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
, I am out of analysis. I no longer analyse. So what has taken place?

Hi, Dan, personally I have discarded self-analysis as sheer intellectual garbage about 40 years ago, nothing took place just because of that, since there are a lot of other deeper attachments

hello John , I had to write a missing part(for me) in what you quoted(from k) , not missing as such and-or voluntarily at all, but a part which for me has some weight: "*the moment I perceive the fact that analyses cannot under any circumstances clear away the burden of the unconscious I am out of analysis..

only "for me" the sentence has an interest within the topic here(superficial and hidden consciousness), because it mentions the unconscious ,it means that to make such a statement or it is a lie from k or he knows what he talks about. If so he knows , which is my feeling , it means that he knows how to clear away the burden of the unconscious, so do I up to a point, very seldom, very hesitating and surely not as k, but yet....this was the main idea in the topic here...

As to analyse or not, in my views I mainly analyse all the time, some of it is quite logic, based on some facts but remains with some analytical leadership,what makes me know that is the fact that I had known what not analysing is and it cannot be mistaken at all, so I am still caught in it....but a step at the time is only what I can afford so far..having said that a no analysing situation personally occurred through "insights"(instant concentrated of facts), I guess this is what you imply in our post.

thanks and cheers.

Dan..

Dan.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
because it mentions the unconscious ,it means that to make such a statement or it is a lie from k or he knows what he talks about. If so he knows , which is my feeling , it means that he knows how to clear away the burden of the unconscious

Obviously, Dan, us and Mr Krishnamurti were not in the same ligue regarding the sub- and un-conscious parts of our consciousness. Don't quote me on this, but based on K' bios (of which he was very well informed and could have denied it in due time) K's total consciuousness was 'burned from inside' by some master 'laser' craftsmen from other dimmensions so, there goes his unconscious: 'Poufff, there you are, Sir !' ( just cannot resist such pieces of weird humour). The 'vessel' had to be empty and that was that. As for your and my consciousness, my educated guess is that this notoriously ignored unconscious is still 'on duty' behind our most common thoughts- craftly disguised in the plain, everyday clothes of self interest, measuring and evaluating the tiniest details and advantages of our existence (including the manipulating techniques of 'psycho-analysis', cause...who's analysig the analyst ? ) it is also the active ingredient behind our strong or weak attachments and not in the least, behind the identification with our ' personal image'that we like to have about ourselves and maybe to 'sell' it to others.
So, in a nutshell, it is all that K is describing (insightfully -analysing ?) in all his public talks...except that we don't make the direct connexion since we usually store all this in a buffer zone of 'knowledge to be eventually checked out'...and in the meanwhile the whole system re-writes itself as in the Orwellian novels. It follows that this whole instinct of survival transposed on the mental plane is always one step ahead of our the 'dumb consciousness'. Now as some of us fall behind...we do need some quick witted psychoanalists; but I believe that somewhere even Mr K said that it is all in the open, and when he speaks of 'thought' as being the culprit of everything, he just omits to call it by its very name the sub-conscious thinking

This post was last updated by John Raica Sun, 29 Jan 2012.

were not in the s???

same category?

however, still alive we keep with it in our ways,and well we may still feel good about it ,even when wrong ::))

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan Sun, 29 Jan 2012.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
same category?

Sorry for the typing delay, Dan. Above is what I really think about it, but for this daring analysis to be more complete, I should add that usually, by 'unconscious' we understand some deposits of the past, like layers after layers found when drilling the soil. Obviously all the past is not completely lost, psy's refer to a 'reptilian brain' and we all have stange dreams where even some long forgotten memories do pop up. The whole issue being, however, which is the determining, the leading part; is it this 'cave'/depository consciousness or the instantly active, the subliminal self consciousness ? The psycho scientists of the future will probably have to struggle with these issues for a while, but the K solution is simple: 'die' to all this. Easier said than done, since in terms of collective consciousness...it had never died; from one generation to the next, from the tragedy of Oedipus to the more down to earth tragedy of the Greek economy, an endless continuity. So, bottom line, we can either 'suffer-but- carry- on' this whole burden of our collective and individual past, or...the solution mentioned above. Tough choice by any cultural standards; it is a choice about the future of this present civilisation, which for the time being seems busy with creating new computers and new games to play on, some of them painfully real.

This post was last updated by John Raica Sun, 29 Jan 2012.

John Raica wrote:
I should add that usually, by 'unconscious' we understand some deposits of the past, like layers after layers found when drilling the soil.

hello john !

yes and may be we understand some purely mechanical functioning too, may be?

I seriously wonder if the image of drilling from top to bottom is right ?
It is not for contradiction sake that I say that , it is a serious question I ask myself from time to time and am not sure about it.

I'd rather would see , different locations , in different parts of the brain-mind ,having different capacities, rather than layers.Layers imply to dig, another location implies to find it..or better turn it on!

Would it change anything if right ? I do not know, but the image of layers if not right would be worthy to consider, I think .Consider that I may be as often , wasting my time !!

Again I ask myself as it is not that clear at all: is it possible that we have turned off (whatever the reasons are so by any means) a vital part vaguely called unconscious , a missing link , a part of the brain which is only very partially opened ? as k says:...in regard to the unconscious with which we are not familiar, we have to get acquainted with it....

A part where unsolved problems ,cravings, hopes and so on are stored .

What I think I know says this : when this(these) "part", unconscious is turned on, then the brain who knows how to solve problems is functioning .
Is it that the usual analytical tool cannot reach that part of the brain-mind? for me the answer is : yes!

Vivid dreams which clearly show and explain, hidden cravings , insights , understanding and this weird "process" which systematically seems to check what is behind sorrow etc...seem to be of this not conscious(reachable)part(s) of the brain-mind; not reachable by the superficial analytical self.

All those parts having to work together as a team but failed to do so.

It is a subject I just recently am interested in..

Dan.

J. Krishnamurti, 1957 3rd Public Talk, Colombo

So it is very important to understand not only the conscious, but also the unconscious mind. The unconscious mind is much more powerful, much more insistent much more directive and conservative than the conscious mind; because the conscious is merely the educated mind which adjusts itself to the environment. He is adjusting himself, as you do, to the environment, to the pressure from outside, but inwardly he is the same - that is, the unconscious is still the residue of the past.

Dan.

J. Krishnamurti, 1964 4th Public Talk, Saanen

How is the unconscious to be cleansed immediately of the past? The analysts think that the unconscious can be partially or even completely cleansed through analysis - through investigation, exploration, confession, the interpretation of dreams, and so on - so that at least you become a `normal' human being, able to adjust yourself to the present environment.

Dan.

J. Krishnamurti, 1965-66 2nd Public Talk, Madras

When we observe - without reading psychologists, the Freuds, the Jungs, and all the rest of the modern philosophers and psychologists - we know what the unconscious is: the racial residue, the experience of the race, the social conditions, the environment, the tradition, the culture - culture being political, religious, educational - which are all deeply embedded in the unconscious.

And I modestly say: this unconscious can be revealed and cured, understood and much more by letting the energy and power hidden within what we call sorrow acts, what if this is right?
please do not throw this away right now!

Dan.

J. Krishnamurti, 1934 3rd Public Talk, Ojai

So let us decide whether you want a shelter, a safety zone, which will no longer yield conflict, whether you want to escape from the present conflict to enter a condition in which there shall be no conflict; or whether you are unaware, unconscious of this conflict in which you exist. If you are unconscious of the conflict, that is, the battle that is taking place between that self and the environment, if you are unconscious of that battle, then why do you seek further remedies? Remain unconscious.

Dan.

in regard to the topic: superficial and hidden consciousness I am quoting Krishnamurti Quote of the Day

Rio De Janeiro, Brazil | 5th Public Talk 18th May, 1935

Question: Have the teachings attributed to the Great Teachers Christ, Buddha, Hermes and others - any value for the attainment of the direct path to truth?

Krishnamurti: If you will not misunderstand, I would say that their teachings become valueless because the human mind, being so subtle, so cunning in its desire for self-protection, twists the teachings to suit its own purposes and creates systems and ideals as a means of escape, out of which grow petrified churches and exploiting priests. Religions throughout the world, through their systems and the trickery of their organized exploitation, seek to teach man to love, to think, to live sanely, intelligently; but how can a system create love or teach you to think selflessly? As you do not want to do this, as you are unwilling to live completely, integrally, with vulnerable mind and heart, you have created a system which has become your master, a system that is contrary to and destructive of thought and love. So it is utterly useless to multiply systems. If the mind frees itself from the illusion of its own self-protective demands and cravings, then there will be love, intelligence; then there will not be this division created by religions and beliefs; man will not be against man

And I humbly finds , so far , in my view so not absolute of course, that the world of illusion on which we-I function, as we are mechanical machines like ish, that this world is not reachable by the main if not probably only tool we use since some centuries , the "analytical brain-mind" ,called "self" or "ego" or "me", or I want to be the only left man on earth after the future last nuclear bombing as the first two ones were not enough as to cure man's suffering there is one way out of many: global forced suicide!!!
Any self( as a machine not linked with anything and anyone) thinks it is , a kind of super something, with one main craving using the + touch forever...I need to breath now!In itself it is harmless on purpose at first, it just have no clue , no intelligence, no wisdom , so is empty of life!

If the mind frees itself....says K. To mention that there are two reasons I see, or it is just another dreamy vow situation so of the analytical mind escaping as usual, or he knows it.

Having recently and a bit lately too , lived the "contact" with this hidden unconscious ( hidden from the self not in absolute of course) in my own life, as it already have "produced" some "magic" in goodness, not the huge bliss where k locates the "no path" but the goodness of a mind which functions sanely for once, I say here that the so called unconscious by the analytical brain is my concern in the present.

...."frees from the illusions of own self-protective demands and cravings".....says Mr K.

Where am I going to find this unconscious ?? why would I search for something I have no clue about ?
Again, rationally and logically speaking, in my view "I" cannot search for this unconscious..

It could be the other way round , once, twice or more this unconscious reached you , in an unusual dream , situation , relief from pain , for no reason , this unexpected "thingy unconscious was there.

When I mention the unconscious here , it is the unconscious of the brain-mind so not the Whole which is unknown, universally unknown, but the self with its cravings and demands, for me the real leader of our lives,like behind the curtain the real mad people leading us in insanity are trying to hide themselves too...same "process", the dark minded people like to be hidden..so does our unconscious.

Here I bring back one K saying :the "hidden me":There is the hidden part of me, the hidden part of you with which you are not familiar, as familiar as you are with your conscious mind...we know ish the superficial me, then there is a hidden one.

Honestly I could go round in circle about the subject and it would be useless , so to make it very short I say: once or more I may well take and be the pain and travel within, it may well shorten the journey in revealing what is behind ordinary pain of man...
then the healing can or may start, if the wound can be cured....

Amazingly at some stage, nearly any " I want" is possibly suspicious.....perverted, by a hidden single false motive caught in refusing "what is"....pain is that.

Yet nothing is solved after those words, as it has to be for real "to be " the pain and see.

Having done it once or more, is not enough ...a few seconds of understanding within a permanent impermanence is not enough..but any start is humble of course.

Dan.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
K saying :the "hidden me":There is the hidden part of me, the hidden part of you with which you are not familiar, as familiar as you are with your conscious mind...we know ish the superficial me, then there is a hidden one.

Hi, Dan, it looks like this siberian snap of winter has chased everybody away, except us...to warmer and more chattering places. Just a few observations 'en vrac':
One: under the individual 'me', there is the collective 'me' of which we may not be fully conscious except...when France ( this is just an example) qualifies for the world cup final of...whatever.
second: The K advices in terms of un/sub/ consciousness are valid only within a dynamic or logic of inner change. since all the past has to be garbaged, piece by piece or all at once, the value of these deposits of our past is becoming relative. However if people continue to live within a dynamic of 'non-change', like Dr Freud sitting on a chair with a notebook and the pacient-who- wishes to get rid of this or that psycho- problem that prevents him/her to sleep well at night, then of course, the modality of unveiling the various layers of hidden consciousness ( onion like or randomlly scrambled) and the bedside manners do matter and you have to be able to pay for it lots of $$$,€€€, £££ or even a few rupees

so, three: it may help to realise in which category we are, each having its own priorities and modalities of approach : in the first the accent falls on the nondual quality of direct perception and the object becomes of a relative significance, while in the second, the perceiver stays put while the objects of his knowledge aremanipulable, can be classified, put on a chart, and eventually made some money with

This post was last updated by John Raica Sun, 05 Feb 2012.