Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Tue, 19 May 2015 #1
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

Hopefully this new thread will not end up in a 'calendar' format, with carefully selected quotes and beautiful pictures, but rather offer some authentic pointers towards a spiritual or 'holistic' way of life. Many of them will be certainly inspired by the timeless truths of the K Teachings, but our fine readers and participants are free to bring in their own favourite insights- especially those which worked out in their own life.

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Fri, 22 May 2015 #2
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

Normally I feel that I am separate from my thinking: that there is a 'me' that is quite substancial and continuous and awake (except when asleep unless I reappear in my 'dream states'). Now, in inquiring into all this,
I see that 'I' am actually not separate from 'my' thoughts; that I actually AM my thoughts and as these thoughts issue from my memories, experiences, beliefs etc., that they are limited in this way and hence so am 'I'. And this situation is not particular to me but is the situation with everyone. Everyone has this sensation of themselves being separate from their thought. So this is a universal situation. And since myself is not different qualitatively from any other 'self' (in fact doesn't actually exist separate from the 'stream' of thought', the stream of 'becoming'), the question arises: If 'I' am not separate from this movement of 'becoming', if 'I' AM this movement of 'becoming', and this 'becoming' is universal among humanity, who am I, really? When (if) the 'becoming' is gone beyond, what are we in essence?

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Sat, 23 May 2015 #3
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

PJ: There is, within it all, a sense of ‘I exist’.

K: That’s the whole point. (With emphasis) You don’t realize that the 'psyche' is that.

PJ: Yes, that’s essentially the nature of the problem.

K : You think that the 'psyche' (the 'self'?) is something other than a conditioned state. You think that there is something in you—in the brain or somewhere—which is 'timeless', which is God, which is this, which is that, and that if only you can reach that, everything will be all right. That’s part of your ( cultural?) conditioning. Because you are uncertain, because you are confused, God or the highest principle or some kind of conviction gives you safety, protection, certainty. That’s all.

Dan: Yes, as she says, I think and feel that I am something other than a "conditioned state", something other than a bundle of dead memories...but an insight, just a glimpse into the truth of this is immense: that one has never seen oneself as BEING the conditioned psyche, BEING the "movement of becoming", "time-thought" etc., seen, not as something one HAS, but something one IS...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 24 May 2015.

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Wed, 27 May 2015 #4
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

as we were talking about meditation , the quote of the day is helping us.

So, then, what do we mean by understanding? Understanding means giving right significance, right valuation, to all things.
To be ignorant is to give wrong values; the very nature of stupidity is the lack of comprehension of right values.

So, understanding comes into being when there are right values, when right values are established. And how is one to establish right values - the right value of property, the right value of relationship, the right value of ideas?

For the right values to come into being, you must understand the thinker, must you not? If I don't understand the thinker, which is myself, what I choose has no meaning, that is, if I don't know myself, then my action, my thought, have no foundation whatsoever.

So, self-knowledge is the beginning of meditation - not the knowledge that you pick up from my books, from authorities, from gurus, but the knowledge that comes into being through self-inquiry, which is self-awareness.

Meditation is the beginning of self-knowledge, and without self-knowledge there is no meditation. Because, if I don't understand the ways of my thoughts, of my feelings, if I don't understand my motives, my desires, my demands, my pursuit of patterns of action, which are ideas - I do not know myself, there is no foundation for thinking; and the thinker who merely asks, prays, or excludes, without understanding himself, must inevitably end in confusion, in illusion.

Dan ...........

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Fri, 29 May 2015 #5
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

Interesting question...Can I be aware that I am the past? By abstracting myself (using the words, the 'me' or the 'I') I can consider myself as though from a distance and think about 'myself'i.e., but to come into real contact with myself, me, when the 'power' of this 'center' is felt... this is the 'center'(call it what you will, put it in quotes etc.) that will kill, has killed, and is killing; to preserve, justify, defend itself and whatever it has become attached to. My feeling is that I take this idea of 'conditioning' a bit too lightly. But obviously, the only way that this situation of me as controller could possibly come to an end is through seeing that I AM the past, out of 'place'etc.; any effort made to 'negate', go beyond etc. would just be in pursuit of something 'greater':'love' compassion, intelligence...seeing seems the only 'way' and how does one come to see oneself as the 'past'? When I'm combing my hair?, when I'm writing here?, when I'm idly wondering about all this and the other 'spiritual' things that I've been involved with for so (too?) many years...?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 29 May 2015.

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Fri, 29 May 2015 #6
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

after all what was recently said...for my own life, I see the need of a catalyst of some sort because thinking cannot go beyond thinking, yet it tries hard ,exactly like my lawnmower cannot fly from Ireland to the north pole....well the lawnmower did not try yet..

A catalyst is triggering and participating somehow in a reaction, the result will not contain the catalyst in it...it is vital to start and help with a reaction...

before any insight, revealing, meditation, kundalini, turning on of the other process etc etc etc something (must) happens to trigger somehow, such event!

For me , I mean not as a Universal truth, yet it could be,
what is found in our unhappy lives is such a trigger; to be so called unhappy is part of a process which has a purpose to bring us from a the known to somewhere else unknown.., it is practically a mean to awake some sort of guidance for us, when I sense what it is!!

to seek for happiness is again finding for more unhappiness, yet of course from time to time some rewards do work up to a point, the analyser has its own world and so its own rewards, always containing in all cases some suffering of some sort(fear ,anxiety,more cravings etc etc etc).......when thought is touching such trigger with its dirty hands, then nothing new, radical, different and in goodness never happens..the trigger does not work.....so there is no other process turned on, shitty life..yet pretending that all is fine of course..and for some it can be yes...this demands possession and means to do all what I want, and this is going to be stolen from others of course as alone I do not even survive...

well of course here I mention suffering-sorrow as a catalyst..so far I do not see any other..if there are some I do not see them....

In what I am saying , it is then somehow sorrow which decides instead of me as an analyser where to go...as sorrow cannot be analytically solved, understood etc..it is the perfect trigger........

then at some stage,when having spent much time in this corner it can be perceived for what it is, a warning ,a signal that what I am up to is wrong, when it happens; we know sorrow because we do not listen, and we do not listen because we do not know about such warning, which can be perceived as a helper of some sort....

then each time something is wrong in my thoughts , this warning can eventually be operational,if I can sense it each time....

A question with no answer sought: let us say that I am not loony, what or who is guiding then ??

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 29 May 2015.

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Sat, 30 May 2015 #7
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

B: The other way is easier. It gives something whereas this gives nothing.

Krishnamurti: This gives everything if you touch it.

B: But the other is easier.

Krishnamurti: You see I am terribly interested in how has the mind of Krishnamurti maintained this state of innocence?

P: You may have been an exception. Did you have a 'centre' to wipe away?

Krishnamurti: No.

I found this very interesting and have in the past: He said he never had this "center of darkness" like us and that as long as there is any "shadow of thnought" that we can not "touch" the "other". So as I have (am) more than a "shadow of thought", I have to take this "other" on faith that 'it' is there because he said so and implies that if one does not reach this in one's life, then one has really never lived. This is where the 'circus' begins. The 'search' for that which cannot' be found through 'search'; subtle, gross, etc. Like a 'Koan'. Why do I have 'faith' in what this man says is 'possible' for humanity when everything points in the opposite direction: more division, more killing, more poverty and misery etc. Do I take some part of it, his teaching, enough to buoy me along? If some person said to me :"you're problem is that you have not accepted Jesus,Allah, etc., into your heart. If you do your life will be beautiful and you will be with them after death..." Though that appeals somehow to many, it's too far out for me...but then what is this 'carrot' of the 'Other' that K speaks of that "gives everything if you touch it.." but you can't 'touch it' if you don't 'disappear'! This business gives one pause...and makes one wonder. All the traditions use 'time' to get to the 'goal'. K says 'time' is out where this is concerned in that 'time' is 'thought' and "anything that thought touches is not Real." Really quite a 'puzzle'...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 30 May 2015.

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Tue, 02 Jun 2015 #8
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

K has spoken of myself as being similar in danger to a "snake" or a "precipice". I can understand about the latter two,since my brain reacts to their danger even before I am aware of them. And I can understand intellectually that I am dangerous in the sense of my basic 'divisiveness' (me and you etc.), also my personal beliefs, pursuits, violence, competitiveness etc. but I cannot even 'imagine' how I could see myself, as I am: a relatively decent, relatively intelligent, relatively compassionate fellow as so posing a threat to humanity that my brain would recoil, as from the cliff and the snake, just from a good glimpse at me; (that which my very brain has wrought and nurtured)...so where would such an'insight',that seems so improbable, come from that would have the requisite energy to put myself (thought-time) in my proper place? As I say, I can't even imagine it....

In thinking a bit more on this, I can see how IF one saw oneself as "the World", truly saw and felt the truth of that: that one IS the World, then this situation of the 'I' would be one of 'darkness', darkness in the sense that it has cut itself off, and imprisoned the brain in a prison of its own making. And out of that alienation, with its sorrow, confusion, fear and conflict, great harm has, and is being done. Then when one has had that realisation that one is truly the world: all of humanity,i.e., the reappearance of this separative, limited 'I' in one's psyche, with all its memories, attachments, sense of 'individuality' etc. WOULD BE like a snake in the corner of the room...so how is one to see with that clarity if one is actually the world, not theoretically, but actually see and feel that one IS the world? How can one see that one is the "world" when one is still attached, when one still has a sense of one's individuality, one's 'me'ness..? You can't. You can take it on 'faith', but....

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 02 Jun 2015.

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Wed, 03 Jun 2015 #9
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

So not 'having' this deep total insight; this realisation of the Truth, "enlightenment" whatever word you want to use...not having this would be the 'root' of all man's sorrow. I have not had it and therefore I am in sorrow? Some of the voices on these forums say that they have found this state of mind, and express a kind of joy when describing their understanding, their 'freedom from the known'...I hear K saying to the ones he spoke with: " I will show it to you" but from what I see they never 'listen'...nor do I if his word:"listening" means this total revolution of the brain.

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Thu, 04 Jun 2015 #10
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

ESTABLISH YOUR PURPOSE

Bombay, India 1927

Human beings forget the goal to which their life leads; hence there is always confusion. Because of the lack of foresight of the thing they desire, they are confused and they are lost, and it is for this reason that you must establish for yourself whither you are going, what your purpose is in life. And when once you have established this for yourself -not by the authority of another, not by the authority of sacred books, nor by the authority of individuals but by a clear-cut ideal- and have definitely decided to follow it, you will attain liberation. And if you have been able to establish such an ideal, then that ideal will become part of your own life and you will walk towards that goal, all things becoming easy to you.

Now, you will see wherever you look -beyond the seas, in America or in Europe- you will find that there is confusion of purpose. The people of the West are seeking happiness, as everyone else in the world is seeking, but they are seeking it in material things. Because they have lost the purpose, because they have forgotten the goal, they are lost in the things that do not matter. If, for example, you desire to go to a particular house and you know the path that leads to that particular house, and you know where the house exists and its exact address, the path to that house will be quite easy and you will go there, avoiding pitfalls without any difficulty. When you know the goal, you will get there, time being of no account. But if you did not know to what house you were going, and what was your goal, you would get lost in the bye paths, in the narrow streets, and in the wayside houses. But when once you have established for yourself the goal towards which you are tending, all things, which lead you away from that goal will have no attraction for you. It is for this that men struggle through their days, during their years and during their many lives. It is, to me, that Kingdom of Happiness which gives Liberation. We are like the river that at the beginning is small but grows as she flows towards the sea, in search of liberation. On her way she accumulates many experiences, feeds many banks and many trees and quenches the thirst of many people and gathers many waters; and slowly, through many places and through the progress of time, she reaches the sea, where she finds her liberation. But when entering that sea of liberation, she brings her experiences of sorrow, of delight and of joy and gives to the sea a part of them. That is the purpose of a human being. When once you have found that and established that for yourself, then life becomes very easy, life becomes very simple and also comprehensive, and all the religious shackles and complications, all religious superstitions vanish, and you remain as steadfast as the sky, looking and trying to learn from everywhere. To attain Liberation has been my aim for many years together. Because when once you have tasted that Liberation you will really be able to help. Then you are beyond the limits of birth and death. Because you have entered into that Kingdom of Liberation and Happiness, you will become one of the great helpers of the world.

Thus the purpose of human life is to accumulate experience and from that experience to learn wisdom, and from that wisdom to hear the voice of intuition, which will lead us towards the goal which belongs to everyone, irrespective of caste, race or religion, irrespective of forms of worship of any God. So you see, if you have that view, if you have such a purpose in life, then all the restricting ideas of your religious thought, all your narrowness will vanish and you will become like the sun, giving light to all those who seek it. And there lies the beauty of life, which is seen in the bright running waters. We must therefore come out of our stagnation and go into the stream of Liberation.

Dan ...........

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Thu, 04 Jun 2015 #11
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

I was thinking about death this morning...physical death. I wondered what the fear of that was all about. Death as I usually consider it is the ending of my taking in the sights and sounds of the world around. The ending of all my memories of all my experiences good and bad. But in the wondering about it there were also sounds coming from outside; Birds, rain, house sounds,...there was sound in my head and sound outside my head. The latter, I (my thinking) would register the outside sounds but after the immediate recognition would no longer hear them in their 'fullness' and becoming aware of this, I wondered if all the sounds outside and inside me could all have 'equal weight', not favoring one over the other but moving simply with whatever was happening, flowing along with whatever was taking place. There was a resistance to this: thought it seems does not want to 'flow', but 'flow' and 'conclude', 'flow' and 'conclude' etc. "Static" not "fluid". And it occured to me that it was the 'knower' who was afraid of 'death'. That he would no longer be here to 'experience' and 'name' and 'record' the sights and sounds of the world.... But it struck me that the irony here was that this 'knower', 'experiencer', this 'me' was already DEAD! It was made up of the past, it was the dead past of memories, fear and images... it stands in the doorway to the senses and blocks the real, the present, the always new, fresh, live, contact with the world around. And in this sense, its 'death' would not be a tragedy but a 'blessing'.

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Sat, 06 Jun 2015 #12
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

K: Now, the question really is whether there is an (inner) action which is ( a total) 'non-action'.

Total non-action means no movement in any direction. Non-action goes beyond the 'controller'. With the controller 'threatened' there arises fear: the fear of being 'out of control'. Is this what is meant by the brain operating in a 'safe' mode? With the controlling faction always in charge?
The 'controller' is not capable of total 'non-action'. When there is NO action, the 'controller' is bypassed. But there is fear there. 'Uncharted territory', fear of the unknown. Thought says,"Don't go there, you don't know where it will lead..."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 06 Jun 2015.

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Thu, 11 Jun 2015 #13
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

Why has the brain been 'conditioned' to immediately label a sensation (energy) arising in the body whether 'pleasant' or 'unpleasant'? K. points out that this 'naming ' from recognition of past instances creates an "opposite" and this process is instantaneous...and without this giving a 'name and 'substance' to these sensations that they would naturally "wither" and subside? What do you all think is the reason for this process and can it end effortlessly?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 11 Jun 2015.

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Mon, 15 Jun 2015 #14
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Thanks for your posts. I always find them interesting as I'm sure others do.

Well I appreciate , the point to write here is to try to say to others a quite precise experiment reproducing itself differently each time but on the same wavelength, so then it is fine...I was thinking about leaving soon, so far each time this idea came to me something, like here your words, happens, so I keep on writing...

I use that post to say that behind the word sorrow I put this: frustration, discontentment, mental suffering, boredom, sadness, depression, meaningless life, fear, anxiety, dissatisfaction, etc...so it is quite a wide spectrum...
what a job for a single word...
the word dukkha in the past times of the Buddha would have such job...but this is an old word,which is more than fine, but now the meaning is gone ...

All those words to signify that whatever I-we are up to, it is never good enough,as long as it is in the field of the analyser...

when the otherness is there ,there is none of that is what I know..such life was free of sorrow , fear, etc..and meaningful..

sorrow says: I am here to help, please leave me alone, do not touch me...etc

and I say yes that is precisely the point...and for me it is not coincidence.

Here I find too a remarkable possible more than a coincidence, that it works like physical pain up to a point...this point being : I do not know if physical pain is a catalyst too,as it is obviously a symptom...so when I am in some physical pain, I recently had gall stone so a heavy pain for 8 hours ish I tried to be aware of that..I did come to any obvious observation yet..I must precise that I am not at all a masochist :-))

the thing is that pain whether mental or physical could use the same "program", the same stream...this is more playing with logic for the moment and may be just wrong..

thanks..the other dan..

Dan ...........

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #15
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

The birds are so 'predictable', they awaken each morning early with seemingly the same 'enthusiasm', the same bursting energy, that flows out in their familiar, 'own', sounds (songs), they search for food endlessly and then they sleep or they are quiet. Their squabbles with one another are short and harmless...but who of us would trade our lives for that kind of 'simplicity'? That kind of 'order'? Comparitively to my mind, we are so 'different', different from all of nature. Where the maps have all been laid out long ago and here we are in this strange world, and unlike the other animals, seemingly we are alone even when we surround ourselves with others and with, money , things and religious beliefs and 'gurus'but always 'feel' that something is missing. Or do we?, do some find a satisfaction, that takes them 'through'? K. has laid the 'root' of our 'problem', in his eyes, as "self-centeredness", The 'center' of a "circle of darkness" that is my 'individual' self. That feeling of 'me'. I wonder if the birds and animals have such a notion; they don't seem to, though they have their 'territoriality', and their families and little 'tribes' but probably not the 'me and mine' against the world attitude. K.s image of this 'self' or 'selves' confined in a mental 'prison', dissatisfied, confused, seeking some sort of permanent 'happiness', security, not being able to 'break out' because he doesn't realise that the 'prison' is of his own making. It's a powerful, troubling image, but is it true? And as more people come into the world and resources diminish and no means of equitably distributing those resources is possible because of the results of this 'self-centeredness'(?) which breeds greed, corruption,fear,the situation gets more and more ugly, more painful for so many. So, if this is the case, can 'Humanity' (I) move out of, away from this as K. called it: the "stream of self-centeredness"? And is that really the root of the problem or is this just the way it's supposed, destined, fated, to go?

At this point, I think not.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 16 Jun 2015.

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #16
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

Is it possible to move out of the stream of self-centeredness?

Just what is this "self" that we see as the center, the problem? The "self" is thought -- the thinker. The "self" is a psychological construction by the physical brain, and not one thing more.

There is no "getting rid of" thinking and thought. Freedom is brought about through awareness, the continual awareness of what thinking is and what thinking does. With this awareness comes abandonment, which is choiceless, effortless, and so without conflict.

max

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #17
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Is it possible to move out of the stream of self-centeredness?

Just what is this "self" that we see as the center, the problem? The "self" is thought -- the thinker. The "self" is a psychological construction by the physical brain, and not one thing more.

There is no "getting rid of" thinking and thought. Freedom is brought about through awareness, the continual awareness of what thinking is and what thinking does. With this awareness comes abandonment, which is choiceless, effortless, and so without conflict.

The way I see it Max and it could be wrong, is that everything you write and everything I write is written by the 'self': myself and yourself. You speak about it as if it wasn't you, that you have set it aside somehow. I can't see it that way. You may call thought, the 'self' (yourself) unnecessary, dangerous, and side with "awareness" but that to me is just another manifestation of the 'self' looking for an answer. That's how I see it. I hope your freedom is real, and if it is, it does mean that there is the possibility to go beyond...

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #18
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The way I see it . . . is that everything you write and everything I write is written by the 'self': myself and yourself.

If this is truly realized, and if it is realized that all that is done is done by the self, in the name of the self, and that there is no possible escape from the self, then isn't this state of realization -- awareness -- actually freedom from the self?

To be aware of something, anything, requires contact, which is unity. But awareness also infers separation -- that of which there is an awareness. Awareness, in its nature, is both unity and abandonment, which is flow and movement.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Tue, 16 Jun 2015.

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Wed, 17 Jun 2015 #19
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

max greene wrote:

If this is truly realized, and if it is realized that all that is done is done by the self, in the name of the self, and that there is no possible escape from the self, then isn't this state of realization -- awareness -- actually freedom from the self?

That sounds right...it's the 'truly realized' part that seems, for me, to be the difficulty.

max greene wrote:
The difficulty for all of us.

hello Max and the other Dan....

without the so called self producing something very painful, unknown, perceived as a suffering so immediately rejected mentally yet this does not work at all, , without that I do not see how it would be possible to realize anything at all but only verbal and intellectual sort of ideal, since the analyser (self or whatever name) must have a dam good reason to stop itself..as for me this is what it is about....I have nothing as such against intellectual ideals but so far in my life, this brought nothing in goodness at all, never but cruel delusions and sorrows ...when something else did brought goodness..

so far I only came across experiment wise, since very young, about what is behind pain as a symptom and a catalyst to leave free in order to force the analyser to totally distrust itself WITHOUT ANY MOTIVE BEHIND, so that includes what is unconscious.The "no motive behind" is vital I explain why for me it is so, down below..

This "doing" , this defeat, implies that the usual analytical bla bla bla goes on and that for once "something " can hear it and not listen to this BS...this is one talent of sorrow as a catalyst to be able to force the analyser to sort of freeze its dictatorship, even for a second, because for a second it will be living sorrow, which is its true mental state...it is like a switch-on button that his living sorrow is, because for such "time", the analyser is not the leader of the brain....

in such moment, the analyser still is there active as usual and somehow sorrow as a catalyst plays its part in creating "something X" which allows anyone in such state to not listen to the usual analytical bla bla bla .....sorrow is then lived, it can be so ONLY if there is no desire to go beyond and even to solve it.....this includes again the unconscious..

I know that for me because since I have seen for myself the depth and strength of this unconscious, it is unconscious for the superficial analyser , I know that in most cases this unconscious had been hiding the real roots of my own deep deep pain of sorrow, the roots showed themselves by leaving sorrow alone, me is defeated...so to actually live sorrow, if it is a real doing with no intention but just somehow to leave it alone, is a "realising" factor...something else not there before ,comes into being and start functioning...the analysing system can negate itself when in pain....

If there is another way or other ways I really have nothing against that at all...but it is then possible too that there is nothing else at all to start with..but sorrow...this goes along with k words actually..it seemed quite "easy" for him..

this is what I know for me.....

but the subject is huge...here I stick to an eventual starting of another process by being defeated by sorrow which if let alone by turning on another process is allowing the discovery of what is that pain of life about....another movement has started then , what may come next is not any more in the analyser capacities anyway...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 17 Jun 2015.

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Wed, 17 Jun 2015 #20
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:
. . . I do not see how it would be possible to realize anything at all but only verbal and intellectual sort of ideal, since the analyser (self or whatever name) must have a dam good reason to stop itself..

If there is a reason, a motive, then we are back to the struggle of opposites -- there is this, or I am this, and I want this other, or I want to be something else. All movement from motive is reaction. Reaction is not creative change.

max

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Wed, 17 Jun 2015 #21
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

. . . I do not see how it would be possible to realize anything at all but only verbal and intellectual sort of ideal, since the analyser (self or whatever name) must have a dam good reason to stop itself..

If there is a reason, a motive, then we are back to the struggle of opposites -- there is this, or I am this, and I want this other, or I want to be something else. All movement from motive is reaction. Reaction is not creative change.

The analytical motive so desire I see here is : "I am fed up with my pain, it must cease"; this is a fact I see in me and others ,whether conscious or not in any living human on earth too as I see-feel it (as usual there must be few exceptions somewhere but not in the main stream).

The surviving process ,the analyser by binary reaction immediately creates an opposite goal : "a sort of absolute happiness up to enlightenment would be great" !! when reality is : that is not a life but a mental misery at the best and so "I" am waiting for the next toy of all sorts whether physical or mental to have some relief from all that, a relief qualified as "happiness"..surrounded by fear,anxiety, frustration etc etc the all shebang of usual personal goodies..this is why utter wealth is a goal for so many, the dream to do all what I want is now THE goal..and it is loaded with a supreme desire for absolute, then you wonder why those guys go even more cuckoo that poor people ,as they know that their position has not changed them deeply when the poor guy still think that it is possible, yet the drug is powerful so the power need more of it...those people have something like 20 000 nuclear nice little bombs at their fingers...and some more than others are trying to go that way...kind of I am desperate ,you will pay for it..all this simply being mental dis-functioning, a bug we have...

up to that level the analyser is still concerned of course, nothing else but a sort of insanity has any reason to happen, we are still inevitably caught in the motive-desires field, so in the thought process; with pain it has a "good" motive-desire, as well as some reason to try to move its "ass".....

it wants the pain felt but unknown to go away somehow, its thinking should do the trick so it really believe..this is basically our usual mental life..caught in that corner leads us to war,business, poverty sadness, nonsense and all usual human goodies by cause-effect chain's reaction ....exactly like an atomic explosion, it is just slower...it is a suicide, suicide always being some attempt to escape from a too heavy pain...

For some being very excessive with themselves, the analyser, had tried all tricks to solve pain of nonsensical life but did not succeed, in fact it is trying to escape from...."itself" but this is here intellectual guess only, such seeing cannot be analytical, the question is how to escape about what it has no clue about, of course nothing works how could it work???? this is going on for millennium...

...and one day all this for one person or many is too much, "my" resistance is now too weak , pain forces the analyser down to its knees if there is a spark of intelligence around, nothing had work and here it is defeated, then it may or not accept its defeat( usually never) and may accept out of no choice having tried all usual tricks to let this pain (it knows nothing about) free to be.

At such precise moment the always arrogant analyser is sort of mentally killed in its own basement by much stronger than itself. The analyser must be very sensitive and fragile-weak to go that way, without sensing the idea of suicide,which by the way is "only" another attempt to escape...kill the body says the analyser that would solve the problem..same idea than "kill them all" or kill the mole at the level of a planet...

If such momentum is real, factual,there is not one single analytical desire leading for a while, for the time the self-freezing of the analyser is on due to the terrible shock to live the fact that it is defeated and useless in this case, it has temporary renounced to its glory quest,refusal, desires, quest and searches....it has been forced to be humble...

For me it is clear that without the help of this catalyst (or an x unknown factor ) that sorrow is ,that there will be nothing else but only analysing...never ending analysing..as least this was and is my own experiment so far..

this is my experience that I try to bring here .

I intentionally do not go after what happens when such thing is happening, yet relief, some goodness and more is there ..weird moments they are.

I purposely focus on that moment where the analyser is defeated and for once do the right thing, in my view and experiences..because in my own life this had been the only triggering event to tame the analyser without searching for it...

sorrow has this great advantage that to solve-escape from it, it is impossible with thinking-analysing, as the pain remains...

etc etc etc

cheers..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 18 Jun 2015.

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Thu, 18 Jun 2015 #22
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

That is, thought identified with an 'idea' has continuance as the 'I' but a thing that continues is constantly decaying, it knows birth and death. In that sense it continues , but the 'thing' that continues can never renew itself. There is renewal only when there is an 'ending'.
Say, for example, that I am worried over a problem which I am trying to solve, and I keep on worrying. What happens ? There is no renewal, is there? The problem continues day after day, week after week, year after year. But when the worrying is ended, there is a renewal, and then the problem has a different significance.

....death as an absolute potential always present is a very "relaxing trick"..in fact death like sorrow and many other right living is producing the same "mental chemical reaction".....I mean, the state of mind where the search for a meaning to a no life is gone...it is not that it is found or not found, such question, and all search as an adult caught in suffering like we all are despite the negation of that fact , is not asked or a subject at all....the end of suffering means the birth of "something else" X...

so death I find that vital to like sorrow is....of course those are not subjects ,as this is what we fear most..bearing in mind that fear means : running away....fear is for me a no word, a poor symbol, an incomplete symbol...

if one starts being conscious that this "no word" fear, hides a running away...then inquiry can start somehow...the word fear is a huge mistake for me..

now about the problem I am trying to solve as in k's example..if the problem is deeply known it will be solved by the very seeing of its roots is what I know, meaning the analyser is not the one which does that..we already are entering here in the missing process competencies, this "world" already has a very different taste than ordinary life caught in thought....what I have observed here too is this : I feel let us say awfully down, to use more words that the usual ones...the analyser is trying to solve that, to get rid of it would be more adequate.

Often the reality was that the analyser always finds many reasons for such state awful of mind, money, work, the neighbours, society, politician, the priest, the left ,the right,death, lack of this, lack of that etc up to name everything it can remember or imagine , then it becomes an activist in some fields or a slave to the master, same energy behind ...the analyser tried to search everywhere but NEVER considered that the problem could be itself...this is an effect of the dividing analytical program, this produces too the so called completion for example, which in fact is a process of elimination directly originated from the analytical capacities...it just does its blind work in all fields including where it should never go..

anyway...what I have observed each time of crisis lived and not escaped, so again the sorrow of it must be left free without any search for anything..this is the immense difficulty of it, what I have observed is this..when the root problem related to the sorrow, the pain the awful state etc is found , not once the analyser had been able to find it, never...........
and I stay with that for now..as I have to go.....

Dan ...........

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Mon, 22 Jun 2015 #23
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
So 'insight' may be the new generation of 'intelligent' perceptive instrument.

Well John , for me it had been there from scratch in human being so millennium ago ,we can see remains of it in many cultures all around the world...yet I have not one proof for it, if so that would not be a new instrument but an old instrument...malfunctioning or not functioning at all in the occidental world..
which does not change the way all this functions....

cheers..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 22 Jun 2015 #24
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

richard villlar wrote:
Le conflit vient avant tout du fait que le mode de perception du cerveau fasse apparaître une réalité duelle, c'est à dire que le cerveau fait apparaître la réalité d'un sujet qui perçoit un objet. Il n'en est rien, il n'y a ni sujet ni objet. La seule chose que nous considérons comme la réalité n'est qu'une perception erronée et nous la saisissons comme réelle. Le conflit, le déséquilibre démarre ici et il est un support d'attention fondamental.

Salut Richard..
..
oui tout à fait, quand tu dis: le déséquilibre démarre ici et il est un support d'attention fondamental,veux tu dire par là que ce que provoque le déséquilibre et-ou le déséquilibre lui même est un moyen vital pour faire quelque chose, ici tu parles d'attention....si oui pourrais tu développer..si l'envie est là bien sur...je suis intéressé..;) pouet !!

Dan ...........

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Mon, 22 Jun 2015 #25
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

richard villlar wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

déséquilibre lui même est un moyen vital pour faire quelque chose, ici tu parles d'attention

un support d'attention fondamental dans la mesure où cette vision erronée, ce déséquilibre est là constamment donc il le support majeur pour s'éveiller, et puis de quoi s'éveillerait on? tout ce qui apparaît est un support pour l'éveil, l'insight... faut pas aller chercher ailleurs ce qui est là, juste là, maintenant.

le support se renversera tôt où tard.

merci c'est clair....

Dan ...........

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Tue, 23 Jun 2015 #26
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Krishnamurti: That is the beauty of it. Silence is when the total quality of the brain is still; the total thing, not just part of it.

When there is this seeing of the limited process of thought, there arises a sensation (fear?) that the 'order' (disorder?) that thought has assembled will be threatened and may 'crumble' in the light of this 'awareness'...and the question of what will take its place (madness?) accompanied by negative images appears. But it is possible to see here that it is not the images that create the fear but that thought itself IS fear. Letting go here means that thought can see that no matter how it 'twists and turns' it will still be 'limited' and 'narrow'.

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Wed, 24 Jun 2015 #27
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K.:"...which you cannot possibly understand unless you leave the movement of time."

Unless there is this leaving, 'anti-entropic' energy will only be an idea, an abstraction, not a 'fact'. As I'm seeing it, the entropy begins with the form: The acorn, the child, the newborn, etc. As it grows overcoming the friction and resistance, it reaches its maturity and then it dies, disintegrates and disappears. For the oak,this may not be a problem but for us it is. (the energy of sorrow and conflict etc.) In the midst of this growing, we become aware that there will be this ending, and it is 'unacceptable'. Not being able to 'leave the movement of time' as K. puts it, we invent an 'anti-entropic' energy: God, a higher self, as a solace to the 'self' that refuses to believe that it can come to an end with the body. But while the search, hope, for an 'infinite energy' is born from the fear of thought, that does not mean that there is no such energy. It just is not in the field of the 'known' and cannot be 'found by the 'self'. Thought does not know its limitation. I think that 'passive awareness', 'total attention', 'total non-action' are terms referring to this 'other' energy that is outside the domain, and control of thought. Outside the "process of becoming"?

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Wed, 24 Jun 2015 #28
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

Dan,

It might be that this "other energy" is in the understanding of the limitations and the errors inherent in thinking and thought (the "self.") There is then an abandonment of thinking -- which is the "time" of entropy and becoming.

max

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Wed, 24 Jun 2015 #29
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
It might be that this "other energy" is in the understanding of the limitations and the errors inherent in thinking and thought (the "self.") There is then an abandonment of thinking -- which is the "time" of entropy and becoming.

It would seem that what is necessary for thought to no longer 'move', control, in this sphere is, as K. said somewhere, for the brain to see its own limitation; that thought can never, being the past, the known, understand the 'unknown', i.e.. That its creation of the 'self', the 'I' for its own security and continuity ultimately gives neither... But how does this take place? "Passive awareness" of the "process of becoming", K. said is all that can be done. "Passive" (not active), because anything else would be the product of our motive and our desire, thought. Where does this awareness come from? How does it arise? It obviously can't be 'taught', 'practised',or even 'invited'.

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Wed, 24 Jun 2015 #30
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
. . . as K. said somewhere, for the brain to see its own limitation ... But how does this take place? "Passive awareness" . . . is all that can be done. But where does this awareness come from? How does it arise? It obviously can't be 'taught', 'practised',or even 'invited.

It seems to me that (1) the brain seeing its own limitation and (2) passive awareness are two entirely different things.

I can't see the brain as able to do anything but coordinate the activities of the body and think. But on the other hand, awareness is the present, the very present moment, as is life -- indeed, they are one and the same. So although Krishnamurti says that the brain can see its own limitation, I rather doubt that it can: thought can't see itself.

It takes awareness, and awareness (life) is always present, but it is smothered, covered over, with the brain's mechanical process of thinking -- the self. To realize this is to be free of it. How is this possible? Because we always do what we understand,

max

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