Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What are actually the K-Teachings ?


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Sat, 17 Jun 2017 #631
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
B: We are caught in the habit of search, and I suppose it is the outcome of our dissatisfaction.

I think part of this statement is rightly formulated, which is we search because we are dissatisfied, I don't see that saying 'we are caught in the habit' is right because it goes against the common habit that we're 'secondhand people', which most people are in fact and which means you just follow successful trends, that is, you're not serious about life. What we can enquire about is why we're dissatisfied and seek (those who are serious and face dissatisfaction). We are dissatisfied because we are aware that we don't see things as they really are because of our conditioning and the tool available to seek is thought/reasoning out, which grasps things in fragments by comparing and judging, that's why we need to communicate and get to know about what other people can grasp of life. I don't think that reasoning out in itself necessarily implies conflict, as Krishnamurti here suggests, on the contrary we're trying and bringing together the fragments that we can grasp and see how they make sense together, we're in a process of complementing, not opposing, tha's all.

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Sat, 17 Jun 2017 #632
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 133 posts in this forum Offline

If our 'conditioning' is anything, it is this 'urge' to seek. First in the physical, better food, water, shelter, safety...security. As it manifests in the psychological, it is the desire for happiness, excitement, variety, novelty, recognition, to 'be somebody', to 'make it', to 'do it my way', enlightenment, etc. But why does the urge exist and persist when it is seen that it is ultimately the cause of sorrow? I would say that it can only cease when it is seen totally, in all its subtle guises. I come to K. because I want what I think he has found and persist until I realize that the image I have of what I think he is, has found, is totally false in every way. My image is based on my experience, on my 'urge' to find the most pleasureful, completeness, enlightenment and that is the image of K. that attracts. I 'want' to attain what I think he has. I project a 'false' image and without realizing it, I chase it. When that is seen clearly, then it is over.

It makes his supposed statement " Nobody has the foggiest idea what I'm talking about" I think (hope?), a little less foggy.

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Sat, 17 Jun 2017 #633
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 133 posts in this forum Offline

I know nothing of the workings of computers but is this 'urge' to 'become' something like a virus? It creates a false psychological 'future' where the images projected can 'become' a reality. It creates a 'glamour', a luminescence that 'outshines' the present?

And inevitably creates sorrow.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 17 Jun 2017.

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Sat, 17 Jun 2017 #634
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
As the 'all controlling' entity is aware that something is lacking inwardly,

I cannot say it is an all-controlling entity and rather than lacking there's always this feeling that there's something wrong about humans, isn't there?

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Sat, 17 Jun 2017 #635
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 133 posts in this forum Offline

Jess S wrote:
this feeling that there's something wrong about humans

That we somehow don't seem to fit in here like everything else around us. I mean we understand we have the big brain but that should be a help not a hindrance, right? I think the 'problem' is thought/time.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 18 Jun 2017.

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #636
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 133 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
And at this very point comes the challenge: to assume full responsability for all this 'psychological' past (in older terms, for the present consequences of the 'sour grapes' that our ancestors ate, way back in the night of time.)

I guess that's right John, we can't 'kick it down the road' when it starts to become obvious what the problem is.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 18 Jun 2017.

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #637
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 580 posts in this forum Offline

(continuing to 'unzip' the Commentaries on Living)

THE ART OF LISTENING

Q: I see the importance of listening, but I wonder if I ever really listen to what you say. Somehow I seem to make a great effort to listen.

K: When you make an effort to listen, are you (freely) listening ? Is not that very effort a (self created ?) distraction which prevents listening? Do you make an effort when you listen to something that gives you delight? Surely, this 'effort to listen' is a form of (subliminal ?) resistance, is it not? And this resistance
breeds (personal) problems, and listening becomes one of them. Listening itself is never a 'problem'.

Q: But to me it is. I want to listen 'correctly' because I feel that what you are saying has deep significance, but I can’t go beyond the verbal meaning.

K: If I may say so, you are not listening even now to what is being said. You have made 'listening' into
a (personal) problem, and (struggling with ?) this problem is preventing you from listening. Everything we touch becomes a problem, one issue breeds many other issues. Perceiving this is it possible not to breed (any psychological ?) problems at all?

Q: That would be marvellous, but how is one to come to that 'happy' state (free of all problems ?) ?

K: The ‘how’, the manner of achieving a certain state (of inner freedom ?) , becomes still another problem.
We are talking of not giving birth to (psychological) problems. If it may be pointed out, you must be aware
of the manner in which the (self-centred ) mind is creating this (new) problem: you want to achieve the state of 'perfect listening'; but you are not listening (now) , so you (think that you ) need time and interest to gain that or any other state. This (very) need for 'time and interest' generates (its own ) problems. You are not simply aware (of the truth of the fact ?) that you are not 'listening' ( totally ?) . When you are becoming aware of it, the very (perception of the ?) fact that you are not listening has its own action; the 'truth' of that fact acts, (rather than ) 'you' acting upon the fact.

( In a nutshell:) Your (personal) effort to act upon the fact breeds problems, whereas seeing the truth of the fact brings its own liberating action. And you are not aware of the 'truth', nor do you see the false as 'false', as long as your mind is (keeping itself ?) 'occupied' with comparison, with justification or condemnation.

Q: All this may be so, but given all the conflicts and contradictions that go on within oneself, it still seems
to me that it is almost impossible to 'listen'...

K: Listening itself is a complete act(ion); the very act of listening brings its own freedom. But are you really
concerned with listening, or with altering the turmoil within? If you would just 'listen' - in the sense of being aware of your inner conflicts and contradictions without forcing them into any particular pattern of thought, perhaps they might altogether cease. You see, we are constantly trying to achieve a particular state, to capture one kind of ( totally rewarding ?) experience, so the (conscious layers of the ?) mind is everlastingly occupied with something; it is never 'still' to listen to the noise (or disturbances ?) of its own struggles and pains. ( (So, for homework:) Be 'simple' (inwardly ) , sir, and don’t try to ( compensate 'what is' by trying to ?) become something (else) or to capture some "experience".

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #638
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I think the 'problem' is thought/time.

Well, we cannot think of nature apart from time, so if we are part of nature, we only have to live according to time. But it is true, I think, that humans have always tried to have power over time, so maybe the problem is we don't understand time, who knows? According to the bible, god created different aspects of nature, one day after the other and then he created man also in time, then he took a rest.

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #639
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 580 posts in this forum Offline

THE FIRE OF DISCONTENT

Q: I have always been a seeker, I have read so many books on so many subjects. I was a Catholic, but left that Church to join another; leaving that too, I joined a religious society. I have recently been reading oriental philosophy, the teachings of the Buddha, and added to all this, I have had myself psychoanalysed; but even that hasn’t stopped me from seeking, and now here I am talking to you. I nearly went to India in search of a Master, but circumstances prevented me from going. I have seriously tryed to meditate but got nowhere, my mind is as silly and vagrant as before. What you said about meditation and prayer has greatly puzzled me, but through all this wearisome confusion, I really want to find Truth and understand its mystery.

K: Do you think that by seeking Truth you will find it? You have never fathomed this urge to seek, have you? Yet you keep on seeking going from one thing to another in the hope of finding what you call "Truth" and make a
mystery of it.

Q: But what’s wrong with going after what I want? I have always gone after what I wanted, and more often than not I have got it.

K: That may be; but do you think that you can collect ( the mystery of ?) Truth as you would gather money or paintings? Do you think Truth is another ornament for one’s vanity? Mustn't the mind that is acquisitive wholly cease for the other to be?

Q: I suppose I am too eager to find it...

K: Not at all. You will find what you seek in your eagerness, but it will not be the Real (thing) .

Q: Then what am I supposed to do, just lie down and vegetate?

K: Is it not important to find out 'why' you are seeking?

Q: Oh, I know very well 'why' I am seeking: I am thoroughly discontented with everything, even with the things I have found. This pain of discontent returns again and again; now I think I have got hold of something,
but it soon fades away and once again the pain of discontent overwhelms me. I must find something
- 'Truth', or whatever it is - that will give me peace and contentment.

K: Should you not be thankful that you have not succeeded in smothering this "fire of discontent"?
You have sought ( a lasting state of ?) 'contentment', but to find it is to stagnate, vegetate. Most people are discontented (with one thing or another) are they not? But their restlessness of discontent is superficially turned into 'achievements' that gratify. So we live on the surface (of Life) and never fathom the depths of discontent.

Q: Then how is one to go below the 'surface' of one's discontent?

K: To live with that pain, without trying to escape from it or to alter it, is to penetrate the depths of discontent. To
be (inwardly) integrated with (your) discontent, without the ( all controlling) 'observer' forcing (or redirecting ?) it into the grooves of satisfaction or accepting it as inevitable, is to allow That ( sense of Wholeness ?) which has no opposite, no second, to come into being.

Q: I follow what you are saying, but I have fought discontent for so many years that it is now very
difficult for me to 'be part of it'.

K: The more you fight a (bad ?) habit, the more life you give to it. Habit is (psychologically speaking ?) a 'dead thing' , so do not fight it, with the (non-dualistic ?) perception of the truth ( about your ) discontent, the 'past' will have lost its (apparently overwhelming ?) significance.

( To Recap:) It is a 'marvellous' thing ( or a great redeeming opportunity ?) to be (inwardly) discontented without smothering that 'flame' by ( accumulating second hand ) knowledge, or (material ?) achievements. There is a "Mystery" ( of Truth ?) that is beyond the capacities and powers of the (self-centred ?) mind, but 'It' must come without 'your' asking, and with it comes a Benediction.

This post was last updated by John Raica Sun, 18 Jun 2017.

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Mon, 19 Jun 2017 #640
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 580 posts in this forum Offline

(THE PSYCHOLOGICAL AFTERMATHS OF ?) AN EXPERIENCE OF BLISS

Imagination perverts the perception of what is; the speculative mind, with its intricate thoughts, is not capable of fundamental transformation; it has (safely) clothed itself with 'what should be' and follows the pattern of its self-enclosing projections. The (inward unfolding of the ?) Good is not in (the pursuit of ?) 'what should be', but in the understanding of 'what is'. Imagination prevents the (direct) perception of 'what is', as does comparison. ( In a nutshell:) The mind must put aside all ( psychologically motivated ?) imagination and speculation for the Real to be.

*

He was quite young but looked very worried and miserable, and was eager to say something.

*

Q: Some time ago I had a most remarkable experience, and as I have never before talked about it to anyone. It was an experience which completely ravished my heart; but it has gone, and now I have only the empty memory of it. Perhaps you can help me to get it back? I woke up one morning very early; the city was still asleep, and its murmur had not yet begun. I felt I had to get out, so I dressed quickly and went down to the street. Even the milk truck was not yet on its rounds. It was early spring, and the sky was pale blue. I had a strong feeling that I should go to the park, a mile or so away. From the moment I came out of my front door I had a strange feeling of lightness, as though I were walking on air. The building opposite, a drab block of flats, had lost all its ugliness; the very bricks were alive and clear. Every little object which ordinarily I would never have noticed seemed to have an extraordinary quality of its own, and strangely, everything seemed to be a part of me. Nothing was separate from me; in fact, the ‘me’ as the observer, the perceiver, was absent, if you know what I mean. There was no ‘me’ separate from that tree, or from that paper in the gutter, or from the birds that were calling to each other. It was a state of consciousness that I had never known.

On the way to the park there is a flower shop. I have passed it hundreds of times, and I used to glance at the flowers as I went by. But on this particular morning I stopped in front of it. The plate glass window was slightly frosted with the heat and damp from inside, but this did not prevent me from seeing the many varieties of flowers. As I stood looking at them, I found myself smiling and laughing with a joy I had never before experienced. Those flowers were speaking to me, and I was speaking to them; I was among them, and they were part of me. In saying this, I may give you the impression that I was hysterical, slightly off my head; but it was not so. I had dressed very carefully, and had been aware of putting on clean things, looking at my watch, seeing the names of the shops, including that of my tailor, and reading the titles of the books in a book shop window.

Everything was alive, and I loved everything. I was the scent of those flowers, but there was no ‘me’ to smell the flowers, if you know what I mean. There was no separation between them and me. That flower shop was fantastically alive with colours, and the beauty of it all must have been stunning, for time and its measurement had ceased. I must have stood there for over twenty minutes, but I assure you there was no sense of time. I could hardly tear myself away from those flowers. The world of struggle, pain and sorrow was there, and yet it was not. You see, in that state, words have no meaning. Words are descriptive, separative, comparative, but in that state there were no words; ‘I’ was not experiencing, there was only that state, that experience.

Time had stopped; there was no 'past', 'present' or 'future'. It was as though the earth, with everything in it and on it, were in a state of benediction, and I, walking towards the park, were part of it. As I drew near the park I was absolutely spellbound by the beauty of those familiar trees. From the pale yellow to the almost black-green, the leaves were dancing with life; every leaf stood out separate, and the whole richness of the earth was in a single leaf. I sat down on a bench, and tears were rolling down my cheeks. There was a silence that was utterly unbearable, but that silence was cleansing all things of pain and sorrow. As I went deeper into the park, there was music in the air. I was surprised, as there was no house nearby, and no one would have a radio in the park at that hour of the morning. The music was part of the whole thing. All the Goodness, all the Compassion of the world was in that park, and God was there.

I am not a 'religion' person and I cannot stomach all that nonsense that goes on in churches. But in that park there was a Being in whom all things lived and had their being. My legs were shaking and I was forced to sit down again, with my back against a tree. The trunk was a living thing, as I was, and I was part of that tree, part of that Being, part of the world. I must have fainted. When I came to, the sun was up. It generally takes me about twenty minutes to walk to the park, but it was nearly two hours since I had left my house. As I slowly walked back home, the whole of that experience was with me; it lasted two days, and faded away as suddenly as it had come.

Then... my (psychological) torture began. I wanted that strange living experience back again, I wanted to live once again and forever in that beatific world. All this happened two years ago. I have seriously thought of giving up everything and going away into some lonely corner of the world, but I know in my heart that I cannot get it back that way. I considered making my way to India, but that too I put aside. Then I tried a certain drug; it made things more vivid, and so on, but an opiate is not what I want. So here I am, I would give everything (or...almost ?) to live again in that world. What am I to do?

K: It came to you, sir, 'uninvited' (as a Heavenly Gift ?) , but as long as 'you' are seeking (to re-capture) It , your very desire to live again in that ecstatic state is preventing the New, that fresh experience of Bliss. See what has happened ? You have had that experience (2 years ago) , and now you are living with the dead memories of yesterday. ( The memory of ?) 'what has been' is preventing the (perception of anything ?) New.

Q: Do you mean to say that I must forget all that has been, and carry on with my 'petty' ( yet safe and rewarding ?) life while inwardly I'm starving?

K: If you do not look back and ask for more, which is quite a (meditative?) task, then perhaps That ( Universal Consciousness ?) 'thing' over which 'you' have no control may act (or not ?) as it will. Greed, even for the Sublime, (eventually ) breeds (frustration & )
sorrow; the psychological urge for 'more' opens the door to (thinking in terms of ?) time. That ( state of) Bliss is not a (personal) reward, a result (of Time) . It comes when 'it' will; (so) do not seek it.

Q: But (at least ) was that experience the 'real (thing') was it of the Highest?

K: We want another to confirm, to make us certain of (the authenticity of ?),what has been, and so that we can find shelter in ( treasuring the memories of ?) it. To be made certain or secure in ( the memory of) that which has been, even if it were the Real, is to strengthen (our psychological) unreal(ity) and breed illusion. (The Ultimate ?) Reality has no (temporal) continuity. It 'is' (creating ?) from moment to moment, timeless and measureless.

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Mon, 19 Jun 2017 #641
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 133 posts in this forum Offline

K: If you would just 'listen' - in the sense of being aware of your inner conflicts and contradictions without forcing them into any particular pattern of thought, perhaps they might altogether cease. You see, we are constantly trying to achieve a particular state, to capture one kind of ( totally rewarding ?) experience, so the (conscious layers of the ?) mind is everlastingly occupied with something; it is never 'still' to listen to the noise (or disturbances ?) of its own struggles and pains.

So as to our everlasting urge to attain a 'perfect' state, his comment here holds up another 'reward', the altogether cessation of ones "inner conflicts and contradictions". We are 'conditioned' to go after what we think is 'better'...we can experiment and question what is it about the immediate present, the sights, the sounds, the smells etc. that isn't 'enough'. Is it its ordinariness, its insufficient stimulation? Is it that I compare what I'm seeing, hearing, in my 'mind space' with what I have read and heard about others 'blissful' states and mine comes out looking a bit 'gray'? Is there an 'addiction' to stimulation that brings on the urge to fly from the tranquil actual present to a more 'interesting' past or future on thought's 'magic carpet'? Thought steals the show. Why?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 19 Jun 2017.

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Mon, 19 Jun 2017 #642
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Greed, even for the Sublime, (eventually ) breeds (frustration & )
sorrow;

We tend to understand this in an abstract way, we just feel we are very 'competent' people because we can understand it as a fact and it stays there. Today I read H Wolfe's testimony to E Blau's comment that Krishnamurti must have had quite an impact on his life:"He changed my life completely.I quit my business because I realized that I was the same kind of a human being that everybody else was.(...) I made a lot less money but I enjoyed... ' (Krishnamurti, 100 Years)

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #643
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 133 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
if you don't expect something more or better than what you already 'have' or what you already 'are', a certain inner & outer deterioration may follow

I think this is so. The opposite state imagined is a kind of vegetativeness. "you're not 'progressing'". "You're not 'getting anywhere'!"

'Being as nothing' is maybe the key? 'Nothing' doesn't 'want' anything. 'Nothing' doesn't 'choose'. 'Nothing' isn't interested in 'becoming' anything. 'Nothing' is nothing. Do you think we should (could?) 'be as nothing'?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 20 Jun 2017.

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #644
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 580 posts in this forum Offline

( Unzipping K's Commentaries on Life)

THE COMPETITIVE WAY OF LIFE

THE MONKEYS WERE on the road, and in the middle of the road a baby monkey was playing with its tail, but the mother was keeping an eye on it. They were all well aware that someone was there, at a safe distance. They were all eating some kind of berries that had fallen on the road from a large, shady tree with thick leaves. The recent rains had filled the river, and the stream under the
narrow bridge was gurgling. The monkeys avoided the water and the puddles on the road, and when
a car appeared splattering mud as it came, they were off the road in a second, the mother taking the baby with her. Some climbed the tree and others went down the bank on each side of the road, but they were back on it as soon as the car had sped by. They had now got quite used to the human presence. They were as restless as the human mind, and up to all kinds of tricks.
The rice fields on either side of the road were a luscious, sparkling green in the warm sun, and
against the blue hills beyond the fields the ricebirds were white and slow-winged. A brilliantly blue kingfisher had
alighted on the bridge and was readying itself for another dive. It was a lovely morning, not too hot, and the solitary palms scattered over the fields told of many things. Between the green fields
and the blue hills there was communion, a song. Time seemed to pass so quickly. Among the newly-sprouted grass there were large red ants; they would race jerkily forward, suddenly stop, and then go off in the opposite direction. Life was so rich, so abundant - and unnoticed, which was perhaps what all these living things, big and little, wanted.

*

What one 'does' and what one 'has' gives one importance and prestige; but man in himself as a total being seems to have hardly any significance at all. He came with two of his friends. Each of them had a good college degree, and they were doing well in their various professions.

*

They were all married and had children, and they seemed pleased with their life, yet they were disturbed too.

Q: I would like to ask a direct question: you keep saying that competition and ambition are destructive urges which man must understand and so be free of, if he is to live in a peaceful society. But are not struggle and conflict part of the very nature of our modern existence?

K: (Our modern ) society as at present constituted is based on ambition and conflict, and the 'individual' is conditioned to its inevitability; if he is to fit into this society at all, he must accept the conditions it lays down, otherwise he has a pretty bad time. We seem to think that we 'have to' fit into this society; but why should one?

Q: If we don’t, won't we just 'go under' ?

K: I wonder if that would happen if we saw the whole (psychological ?) significance of the problem? We might not live according to the usual ( rat-race ?) pattern, but we would ( give ourselves a chance to ?) live creatively and happily, with a wholly different outlook. Such a state ( of holistically integrated mind ?) cannot be brought about if we accept the present social pattern as inevitable.
But to get back to your (contention) point: do ambition, competition and conflict constitute the inevitable way of life? Why do you take this competitive way of life to be the only process of existence?

Q: Because I simply don’t know of any other way of living;
and even if I did, I suppose I would be
gravely concerned about the future of my family and children if I broke away from the usual routines of life.

K: You may be responsible for others, sir, but have you not also the ( global) responsibility to bring about a peaceful world? There can be no peace, no enduring happiness for man as long as we accept this 'competitive' existence as inevitable.
Competitiveness, ambition, implies conflict within and without, does it not?

Q: I can see that, but what is one to do? Being caught in this net of competition, how is one to get out of
it? And even if one does get out of it, what assurance is there that there will be peace between man and man? Unless all of us see the truth of the matter at the same time, the perception of that truth by one or two will have no value whatever.

K: We are not now thinking in terms of success or failure, but rather in terms of the elimination of conflict; and does it follow that without conflict, stagnation is inevitable? Surely, peace comes into being when 'you' ( the self-centred consciousness ?) are not (around ?) - it is 'you' who are the agent of conflict with your ambitions and frustrations.
Your other point, sir, that all must see the truth of this problem at the same time, is an obvious impossibility. But it is possible to see it individually ; and when you do, that "truth" which you have seen and which brings freedom, will ( also ?) affect ( the consciousness of ?) others.
Basically it must begin with 'you', for you are ( the manifested consciousness of ?) the world, as the other is.

( To recap:) (Our personal) ambition breeds ( a standardised ?) mediocrity of mind and heart; ambition is superficial, for it is everlastingly seeking a (material)
result. The man who wants to be a successful politician, or a big executive, is concerned with personal achievement. Whether identified with (or hidden behind ?) an ideal, a nation, or a religious or economic system, the urge to be successful only strengthens the ego, the self-(consciousness ?) , whose very structure is brittle (artificial ?) , superficial and limited. All this is fairly obvious if one looks (non-personally ?) into it, is it not?

Q: It may be 'obvious' to you, sir, but to most of us conflict gives the sense of ( a purposeful) existence, the feeling that we are alive. Without ambition and competition, our lives would be drab and useless.

K: Since you are maintaining this competitive way of life, your children and your children’s children
will bread further antagonism, envy and war; neither you nor they will have (inner, or outer ?) peace. Having been
conditioned (culturally standardised ?) to live within this traditional pattern of existence, you are in turn educating your children to accept it; so the world goes on in this sorrowful way.

Q: We may all want to change, but...

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #645
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 580 posts in this forum Offline

MEDITATION AND SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS

He was a 'sannyasi', a wandering monk, but not of any particular order, and he spoke of himself as of a third
person. While he was still young he had renounced the world and its ways and had wandered all over the
country, staying with some of the well known religious teachers, talking with them and following their
peculiar disciplines and rituals. He had fasted for many a day, lived in solitude among the mountains,
and done most of the things that sannyasis are supposed to do. Then one day he had decided to abandon all these practices, rituals and disciplines as being
vain and without much significance, and had gone off into some faraway mountain village, where he
had spent many years in deep contemplation. The usual thing had happened, he said with a smile,
and he in his turn had become well known and had had a large following of disciples to whom he
taught simple things. He had read the ancient Sanskrit literature, and now that too he had put away.
Although it was necessary to describe briefly what his life had been, he added, that was not the main
thing for which he had come.

*

Q: Above all virtue, self-sacrifice, and the action of dispassionate help, is meditation. Without
meditation, knowledge and action become a wearisome burden with very little meaning; but few
know what meditation is. If you are willing, we must talk this over. In meditation it has been the
experience of the speaker to reach different states of consciousness; he has had the experiences
that all aspiring human beings sooner or later go through, the visions embodying Krishna, Christ,
Buddha. They are the outcome of one’s own thought and education, and of what maybe called one’s cultural (background) . There are visions, experiences and powers of many different varieties. Unfortunately,
most seekers are caught in the net of their own thought and desire, even some of the greatest exponents of truth. Having the power of healing and the gift of words, they become prisoners to their own capacities and experiences. The speaker himself has passed through these experiences and to the best of his ability has understood and gone beyond them - at least, let us hope
so. What then is meditation?

K: Surely, in considering meditation, (the mental) effort ( to concentrate ?) and the 'maker of effort' must be understood. 'Good' effort and 'wrong' effort are both (time ?) binding, and ( the action of ?) meditation is the breaking of all bondage; it is a state of freedom, but not from anything. Meditation is allso the breaking down of the 'experiencer' (mental entity ?) , which cannot be done consciously. If the experiencer is broken down consciously, then there is a strengthening of the will, which is also a part of (self-) consciousness. Our problem, then, is concerned with the whole process of consciousness, and not with one part of it, small or great, dominant or subservient.

Q: What you say seems to be true. The ways of ( the self-centred ) consciousness are profound, deceptive and
contradictory. It is only through dispassionate observation and careful study that this tangle can be unravelled and order can prevail. But if one may inquire, what is it that will bring peace, stillness to this consciousness?

K: Nothing. Surely, the (thinking ) mind is an instrument
that has been put together, it is the fabric of time, and it can only think in terms of result, of achievement, of something to be gained or avoided.

Q: That is so. It is being stated that as long as this mind is active, choosing, seeking, experiencing,
there must be the maker of effort who creates his own (self-) image, calling it by different names, and this
is the net in which thought is caught.

K: ( The self-centred process of ?) thought itself is the maker of the net; thought is the net. Thought is (time) binding; and can only lead to the vast expanse of time, the field in which knowledge, action, virtue, have importance. However refined or simplified, thinking cannot breakdown all (self-centred) thought. ( Self-) consciousness as the 'experiencer', the
'observer', the 'chooser', or 'the will', must come to an end (in meditation ?) , voluntarily and happily, without any
hope of reward. The 'seeker' (self-conscious entity ) ceases (to exist ?) in meditation. Silence of the mind cannot be brought about through the action of will. There is silence when 'will' ceases. This is (also part of ?) meditation. ( The unfolding of ?) Reality cannot be sought after; it 'is' ( happening ?) when the 'seeker' is not.
( In a nutshell:) ( The self-centred ?) mind is (the result of ?) time, and (its temporal ) thinking cannot uncover the Measureless.

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #646
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 580 posts in this forum Offline

MEDITATION AND SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS

He was a 'sannyasi', a wandering monk, but not of any particular order, and he spoke of himself as of a third person. While he was still young he had renounced the world and its ways and had wandered all over the country, staying with some of the well known religious teachers, talking with them and following their peculiar disciplines and rituals. He had fasted for many a day, lived in solitude among the mountains, and done most of the things that sannyasis are supposed to do. Then one day he had decided to abandon all these practices, rituals and disciplines as being vain and without much significance, and had gone off into some faraway mountain village, where he had spent many years in deep contemplation. The usual thing had happened, he said with a smile, and he in his turn had become well known and had had a large following of disciples to whom he taught simple things. He had read the ancient Sanskrit literature, and now that too he had put away. Although it was necessary to describe briefly what his life had been, he added, that was not the main thing for which he had come.

*

Q: Above all virtue, self-sacrifice, and the action of dispassionate help, is meditation. Without meditation, knowledge and action become a wearisome burden with very little meaning; but few know what meditation is. If you are willing, we must talk this over. In meditation it has been the experience of the speaker to reach different states of consciousness; he has had the experiences that all aspiring human beings sooner or later go through, the visions embodying Krishna, Christ, Buddha. They are the outcome of one’s own thought and education, and of what maybe called one’s cultural (background) . There are visions, experiences and powers of many different varieties. Unfortunately, most seekers are caught in the net of their own thought and desire, even some of the greatest exponents of truth. Having the power of healing and the gift of words, they become prisoners to their own capacities and experiences. The speaker himself has passed through these experiences and to the best of his ability has understood and gone beyond them - at least, let us hope so. What then is meditation?

K: Surely, in considering meditation, (the mental) effort ( to concentrate ?) and the 'maker of effort' must be understood. 'Good' effort and 'wrong' effort are both (time ?) binding, and ( the action of ?) meditation is the breaking of all bondage; it is a state of freedom, but not from anything. Meditation is allso the breaking down of the 'experiencer' (mental entity ?) , which cannot be done consciously. If the experiencer is broken down consciously, then there is a strengthening of the will, which is also a part of (self-) consciousness. Our problem, then, is concerned with the whole process of consciousness, and not with one part of it, small or great, dominant or subservient.

Q: What you say seems to be true. The ways of ( the self-centred ) consciousness are profound, deceptive and contradictory. It is only through dispassionate observation and careful study that this tangle can be unravelled and order can prevail. But if one may inquire, what is it that will bring peace, stillness to this consciousness?

K: Nothing (Not-a-thing ?) . Surely, the (self-centred ) mind is an instrument that has been put together, it is the fabric of time, and it can only think in terms of result, of achievement, of something to be gained or avoided.

Q: That is so. It is being stated that as long as this mind is active, choosing, seeking, experiencing, there must be the maker of effort who creates his own (self-) image, calling it by different names, and this is the net in which thought is caught.

K: ( The self-centred process of ?) thought itself is the maker of the net; thought is the net. Thought is (time) binding; and can only lead to the vast expanse of time, the field in which knowledge, action, virtue, have importance. However refined or simplified, thinking cannot breakdown all (self-centred) thought. ( Self-) consciousness as the 'experiencer', the 'observer', the 'chooser', or 'the will', must come to an end (in meditation ?) , voluntarily and happily, without any hope of reward. The 'seeker' (self-conscious entity ) ceases (to exist ?) in meditation. Silence of the mind cannot be brought about through the action of will. There is silence when 'will' ceases. This is (also part of ?) meditation. ( The unfolding of ?) Reality cannot be sought after; it 'is' ( happening ?) when the 'seeker' is not.

( In a nutshell:) ( The self-centred ?) mind is (the result of ?) time, and (its temporal ) thinking cannot uncover the Measureless.

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #647
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
there are a couple of inconsistencies

I'm sure you're right in more than just one sense, even! In this case, I don't know anything about this Harry Wolfe's life apart from what Evelyn Blau tells us, but the important thing here is that this man for some reason did listen to Krishnamurti to the point that it changed his life so that he no longer indulged in making profit by cheating people, it doesn't mean that he got enlightened but it means that he could see the immorality of current society and was courageous enough to move away from it. It reminds me of someone who once told me in India he had been a student in Krishnamurti's Rajghat school which was a wonderful time in his life, but then he became an engineer and he just followed what society demanded from him. Now and then he would come and visit the school and remember the happy times of his childhood! Now, about what you mention Krishnamurti said when he was about to die, I think he said it when S Forbes was there recording or something. Well, if he really meant something really, I understand he specially wanted to make it clear that there was nobody that could take his place. He was rather particular I think all his life about this, I remember how he reacted when he was told Vimala Thakar was saying the same things that he used to say, for example! And some masters left behind a special disciple, and in the bible we have the episode of Jesus specially addressing Peter with this purpose. Anyway, Krishnamurti could not know about whether anybody in the world was 'living the teachings', I don't think it's reasonable to take his words in that sense.

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #648
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 580 posts in this forum Offline

Jess S wrote:
Now, about what you mention Krishnamurti said when he was about to die, I think he said it when S Forbes was there recording or something

Actually, Jess, K dictated it word for word to Mary Cadogan a few days before his passing. And he was fair enough to mention that he was talking about people he met personally. As for the 'Forbes' character K made him take an oath ( a few months before) that he will not change or interpret the Teachings. Serves him well !

This post was last updated by John Raica Tue, 20 Jun 2017.

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #649
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 580 posts in this forum Offline

PSYCHANALYSIS AND THE ( HOLISTIC SOLUTION OF THE) HUMAN PROBLEM

As a professional psychiatrist and psychanalyst he had been in practice for a number of years and had many cures to his credit. He worked in a hospital as well as in his private office. His prosperous patients had made him prosperous too, with expensive cars, a country house, and all the rest of it. He had studied mesmerism, and tentatively practiced hypnosis on some of his patients.

*

Q: It is a very curious thing how, during the hypnotic state, people will freely and easily speak of their hidden compulsions and responses, and every time a patient is put under hypnosis I feel the strangeness of it. Hypnosis may or may not be a short cut, and I don’t feel it is justified except in certain stubborn cases. It takes a long period to cure a patient, generally several months, and it is a pretty tiring business. Some time ago, a patient of mine whom I had been treating for a number of months came to see me. By no means a stupid woman, she was well read and had wide interests; and with considerable excitement and a smile which I had not seen for a long time, she told me that she had been persuaded by a friend to attend some of your talks. It appeared that during the talks she felt herself being released from her depressions, which were rather serious. She said that the first talk had quite bewildered her. The thoughts and the words were new to her and seemed contradictory, and she did not want to attend the second talk; but her friend explained that this often happened, and that she should listen to several talks before making up her mind. She finally went to all of them, and as I say, she felt a sense of release. What you said seemed to touch ( or activate ?) certain points in her consciousness, and without making any effort to be free from her frustrations and depressions, she found that they were gone; they had simply ceased to exist. This was some months ago. I saw her again the other day, and those depressions have certainly cleared up; she is normal and happy, especially in her relationship with her family, and things seem to be all right.

Thanks to this patient, I have read some of your teachings, and what I really want to talk over with you is this: is there a way or a method by which we can quickly get at the root of all this human misery? Our present techniques take ( a lot of) time and patient investigation.

K: Sir, if one may ask, what is it that you are trying to do with your patients

Q: Stated simply, we try to help them to overcome their difficulties, depressions, and so on, in order that they may fit into society.

K: Do you think it is very important to help people to fit into this (psychologically ?) corrupt mentality ?

Q: The reformation of society is not our business. Our business is to help the patient to adjust himself to his existing surrounding and be a more happy and useful citizen. We are not trying to create 'super-normal' people. I don’t think that is our function.

K: If I may ask, is it not also (implied in the 'holistic' requirements of ) your function to bring about a totally new order (within human consciousness ?) , a (better) world in which there will be no wars, no antagonism, no urge to compete, and so on? Do not all these ( materialistic ) urges and compulsions bring about a social environment which develops (psychologically disturbed or ?) 'abnormal' people? If one is concerned only with 'helping' individuals conform to the existing social pattern, is one not maintaining the very causes that make for frustration misery and destruction?

Q: There is certainly something in what you say but as psychanalists I don’t think we are prepared (or paid ?) to go so deeply into the whole causation of human misery.

K: Then it seems, sir, that you are concerned, not with the total development of man, but only with one particular part of his total consciousness. Healing that part may be necessary, but without understanding the total process of man, we may cause other forms of disease. Surely, this is an obvious fact that must be taken into consideration, not merely by ( the highly paid) specialists, but by each one of us.

Q: You are leading into very deep issues to which I am not accustomed, and I find myself beyond my depth. I have thought only vaguely about what we are actually trying to accomplish with our patients apart from the usual procedure. You see, most of us have neither the inclination nor the time to study all this; but I suppose we really ought to if we want to free ourselves and help our patients to be free from the (psychological) confusion and misery (generated by ) modern civilization.

K: The (psychological ?) problems of the individual are (reflected in) the world’s problems, they are not two separate processes. The total consciousness of man is concerned with God, with death, with leading a right and happy livelihood with children and their education, with war and peace. Without understanding all this, there can be no healing of (the human psyche ?)

Q: I think very few of us are capable of such wide and deep investigation. We are just trained to become specialists, technicians, which has its uses, but unfortunately that is the end of us. Whether his specialty is the heart or a more complex one , each specialist builds his own little heaven, and though he may occasionally read something on the side, he remains (stuck there ) till he dies. You are ( holistically) right, but there it is.

But (after this ethical detour ?) I would like to return to my initial question: is there a technique by which we can go directly to the root of our miseries, especially those of the patient and thereby eradicate them quickly?

K: Can ( the pursuit of any 'psycho-) technique' set man free, or is it merely ( 'formatting' his mind in order ?) to achieve a desired end? And this 'desired end', being the opposite of man’s anxieties, fears, frustrations, pressures, is itself the (idealised) outcome of these. The re-action of (pursuing) the 'opposite' (of what is) is not the 'true' action, either in the economic or the psychological world. But apart from (thought's) techniques or methods, there may be a (psychologically integrating ?) factor which will really help man.

Q: What is that?

K: Perhaps it is Love.

This post was last updated by John Raica Wed, 21 Jun 2017.

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1 day ago #650
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 580 posts in this forum Offline

(TEMPORARILY) CLEANSED OF THE PAST

Those flowers were very beautiful, their colours rich and deep and they grew in extraordinary places, on rocks, in the crevices of broken walls, and in the courtyards. They had grown there, wild and free, for untold centuries, and it seemed a sacrilege to tread on them, for they crowded the path; it was their world, and we were strangers, but they did not make one feel that way. There was a peaceful enchantment, gentle and expansive; here you could live timelessly, without a past and a future, for you were one with this whole rapturous world. You were not a human being, a stranger from a different land, but you were those hills, those goats, and the goatherd. You were the sky and the blossoming earth; you were not apart from it, you were of it. But you were not ( self-) conscious that you were of it, any more than those flowers were. The 'you' who choose, compare, act and seek didn't exist ; you were (one ?) with everything.

*

We were sitting under a tree, and he was telling how, as a young and middle aged man, he had worked in different parts of Europe throughout the two world wars. During the last one he had no home, often went hungry, and was nearly shot for something or other by this or that conquering army. He had spent sleepless and tortured nights in prison, for in his wanderings he had lost his passport, and none would believe his simple statement as to where he was born and to what country he belonged. He spoke several languages, had been an engineer, then in some sort of business, and was now painting. He now had a passport, he said with a smile, and a place to live.

*

Q: There are many like me, people who were destroyed and have come back to life again; I don’t regret it, but somehow I have lost the intimate contact with what one calls (social) 'life'. I am a monk at heart, but outside the prison of a monastery. I am telling you all this to give you a sketch of my background, for in talking things over with you I may get to understand something which has become very vital to me: one day I set out for those hills with my painting things, for I had seen something over there which I wanted to paint. It was fairly early in the morning when I got to the place, and there were a few clouds in the sky. From where I was I could see across the valley to the bright sea. I was enchanted to be alone, and began to paint. I must have been painting for some time, and it was coming along beautifully when I became aware that something was taking place 'inside my head'. I could not go on with my painting, and I sat very still. Sitting there I was aware of an extraordinarily (inner) creative energy. It was something in me, something that was also in those ants and in that restless squirrel ; it was Creation, pure and simple, and the 'things' produced by the mind or by the hand were on the outer fringes of this (innermost source of ) Creation, with little significance. There was a sacredness about it, a benediction. It was the centre of Creation, something uncontaminated, unthought of, and tears were rolling down my cheeks; I was being washed clean of all my past. There was an astonishing silence - not the silence of the night when all things sleep, but a silence in which everything was awake. I must have sat there, motionless, for a very long time, for the sun was in the west; I was a little stiff, one leg had gone to sleep, and I could stand up only with difficulty. I am not exaggerating, sir, but time seemed to have stopped - or rather, there was no time. I had no watch, but several hours must have passed from the moment I put my brush down to the moment I got up. Picking up all my things and carefully putting them in my knapsack, I left, and in that extraordinary state I walked back to my house. All the noises of the small town did not in any way disturb that state, and it lasted for several hours after I got home. When I awoke the next morning, it was completely gone.** I looked at my painting; it was good, but nothing outstanding. Now I am not asking for an explanation, but how does this thing come into being? What are the circumstances necessary for it to be?

K:You are asking this question because you want to experience it again, are you not?

Q: I suppose that is the motive behind my question, but..

K: Please, let us go on from there. What is important (experientially) is that you should not go after it. Greed breeds arrogance, and what is necessary here is ( an authentic inner) humility; there should be innocence, freedom from the memory of past experience, good or bad, pleasant or painful.

Q: Good Lord, you are telling me to forget something which has become of total importance to me. I cannot forget it, nor do I want to

K: Yes, sir, that is the (experiential) difficulty. please listen with patience and insight. What have you now? A 'dead' memory. While it was happening it was a 'living thing' and there was no ‘me’, no clinging (to the psychological) memory of what had been. Your mind was then in a state of innocency, without seeking, asking, or holding; it was free. But now you are seeking and clinging to the dead past.

Oh, yes, it (the memory of it ?) is (as good as ?) 'dead'; your 'remembrance' has destroyed it and is creating the 'conflict of duality' - between 'what has been' and 'what you hope for'. Conflict is death, and you are living with darkness. 'That' thing does happen when the self (-consciousness ) is absent; but the craving for more, strengthens the self and prevents that living Reality.

Q: Then how am I to 'wipe away' this exciting memory?

K: Again, your very question indicates the (lingering) desire to recapture that state, does it not? You want to 'wipe away' (delete ?) the memory of that state in order to experience it further, so your craving still remains, though you are willing to forget what has been.

( In a nutshell:) Your craving for that extraordinary state is similar to that of a man who is addicted to drink or to a drug. What is all-important is that this craving should be (integrated & ) understood and should voluntarily dissolve without resistance, without the action of will.

Q: Do you mean that the very remembering of that state, and my intense urge to experience it again, are preventing something of a similar or perhaps a different nature from happening again ? Must I 'do nothing', consciously or unconsciously, to bring it about?

K: If you really understand (what this 'doing nothing') means in (terms of meditation ?) that is so.

Q: You are asking an almost 'impossible' thing, but one never knows...

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