We have so many divisons in the world. All division is based on identification.

By gender, religion, caste, sect, age, region, nation, profession, education, etc.

But by far, to me it seems racistic division is the most significant at the same time necessary. I am an Indian and lot of Indians think "Indian" is a race. Actually, it is a verified fact the Indian origin consists of "three" races - not one! Aryan, Dravidian and Mongoloid! Lot of Indians do not even realize that they are a mix of these races. They divide/identify themselves as North Indians and South Indians and East Indians. Actually everyone has a mix of these three race traits, and depending on the proportion, each individual looks and behaves so different and unique.

With all due and equal respect to all religions:

Diversity is important, but races seem to have real unique properties, not only through identification but actually, genetically. There are significant differences in races. We all classify as belonging to same human species but races seem to be like sub-species. Different but unique. Some are good at some things, others are good at others.

Caucasians and Arabs are in constant conflict. Palestinians and Israelis are identical racially actually, but fight endlessly. Africans are in poverty and starvation. Chinese are racing ahead in manufacturing. Latin Americans are in the same boat as Indians. Pakistanis and North Indians belong to the same race but fight on nationalistic difference. Don't talk about the recent Russia - Georgia war, which involves caucasion conflict. Africa has a similar problem.

So does Krishnamurti's statement "Mind is the same" no matter who you are hold any real truth, in light of genetic differences in races?

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

This post was last updated by Dappling Light (account deleted) Wed, 10 Jun 2009.

Keshni Sahni wrote:
does Krishnamurti's statement "Mind is the same" no matter who you are hold any real truth, in light of genetic differences in races?

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

What is this "mind"? As you explained above the genetic origin of Indians etc, mind, is it a conglomeration of thoughts accumulated over the centuries by the collective societies or groups.You talk above about genetic conglomeration or globalization taking place but the so called "MIND" remains and operates in its habitual groove.Why?Can it not slip away from the wanton path?Or the indivdual that has ,his/her "mind" try slip away from this conglomerated/globalized habitual MIND? Or is it all pre-ordained as would the Eastern religions would want us to believe....

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Well the behaviours are so different, that I am suspecting there has to be some genetic component causing different behaviours apart from global common accumulation which we are denoting by the word "mind".

There is more in common than the difference, but the difference is significant as well and should be brought under awareness - is what I feel. Atleast the physical part.

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

Keshni Sahni wrote:
There is more in common than the difference, but the difference is significant as well and should be brought under awareness - is what I feel. Atleast the physical part.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Dear Keshni Sahni, how do you define these "differences"? Is it possible to separate genetically-conditioned-behaviour from non-genetic-origin-behaviour?If you take wars or conflicts between groups/nations, one can see the behaviour is the same old repeated behaviour over the historical centuries. You may have to explain further on your differentiation.
Regards
Krishnan S

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

In Indian classrooms, girls and boys sit separately. That is natural. In heterogenous groups of races, caucasians and asians separate for example. I feel that is also natural. Genetic.
But what about nationalistic differences? The war between Georgia and Russia for example? They are the same race, almost same culture, ex-communist nations. Still they are fought a bloody war. Is it a very unconscious/hidden fight for existing resources of society?
We carry society with us whereve we go - like a map. With all the things that society provides us that we can not live without. Are we really fighting for resources or simply is it a chest thumping activity of apes?

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

Keshni Sahni wrote:

In Indian classrooms, girls and boys sit separately. That is natural. In heterogenous groups of races, caucasians and asians separate for example. I feel that is also natural. Genetic.
But what about nationalistic differences? The war between Georgia and Russia for example? They are the same race, almost same culture, ex-communist nations. Still they are fought a bloody war. Is it a very unconscious/hidden fight for existing resources of society?
We carry society with us whereve we go - like a map. With all the things that society provides us that we can not live without. Are we really fighting for resources or simply is it a chest thumping activity of apes?

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

All that is "PROGRAMMING" as Jk would call "Conditioning". I am asking can we slip free from these constraining "Programmes"/"Conditioning"?

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

We can but do we need to is the question.

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

Nice over view of our real world problem. We need to accept the conflicts as they are.
It is waste of time to modify to different from how it is now. Because each and every one is selfish. No dog wants the other street dog to be entertained in its own street. Human too follow the same principle of living. Even among our own brothers and sisters, we fight for A - Z from child hood to grave yard.

Fire lasts only as long as it heats. The earth lasts only as long as it revolves. Man lasts only as long as he tries. You are man (literal) ? To be human is to strive.

Cinel Soy wrote:
It is waste of time to modify to different from how it is now. Because each and every one is selfish. No dog wants the other street dog to be entertained in its own street. Human too follow the same principle of living. Even among our own brothers and sisters, we fight for A - Z from child hood to grave yard.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Dear Cinel Soy, you seem to echo what is writeen by ADI SHANKARA&GAUDAPADA in
MANDUKYA KARIKA and its interpretaions. That is, the true nature of every being human or animal would always prevail and it can nebver change. Is it due to predermination of FATE or is it genetics that plays a part? It relevant here to probe the question, don´`t you
think?

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Cinel Soy wrote:
No dog wants the other street dog to be entertained in its own street

I see what you are saying - the animal is predominant.

But...

I am seeing that there is a rush for entertainment, in a sophisticated form in the guise of spiritual world. They get bored and leave after some time.

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

From time in memorial humans have been defining themselves based on their differences. Culture, religion, skin tone etc. K is talking about common humanity or the core which is the same for all humans. The problem with divisions is that they create conflict and conflict further is divisive and we live in this conflictive existence. The fact as I understand K to point out is, that all these divisions are man made and are not the sacred.
All conflict gender, nationality etc. contributes to confusion and to false existence. K points to an actuality not a man-made-reality that sees life as one whole. I am the world means that. We are the world. So all other concepts can not bring about a world in which life is free of suffering. This is common to all humanity?.suffering.

Life is relationship

I have done a lot of research and enquiry on this Eve. I feel all differences are man-made except

Racial differences.

We need to appreciate the beauty of diversity ( and that includes caucasians) and move on.

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

Keshni Sahni wrote:

I have done a lot of research and enquiry on this Eve. I feel all differences are man-made except

Racial differences.

We need to appreciate the beauty of diversity ( and that includes caucasians) and move on.

How are you different from me? Deep down? You are talking about appreciation of culture not skin color.

If one loves one does not create divisions based on culture or skin color. Love means that. So there is beauty and love which includes us all.

We have been killing each other based on divisions including divisions based on color for a very long time now. Why do you have to see yourself as Indian? This is only a lable not an actuality.

Life is relationship

I understand the reasons for your anger.

I am not talking about culture, which varies from region to region.

I lived in America for five years and visited 8 countries so far. I am not talking about discrimination here.

However I realized racial differences are more fundamental(genetic) than cultural differences. We do need to appreciate the differences and respect them even though the spirit living behind the forms is the same.

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

Why do you say that diversity is important? Is it helpful to express our collective individuality? Or is that the problem in the world of relationships? On the level of the biological entity, all the way up to the level of the nation-state.

The outer is the inner sir.

I travelled across the west as well as the east. Do you see the difference in the way the societies are built?
West is neat and organized. East is crowded and chaotic. There is inner poverty amidst the riches in the west. Opposite in the east?

So basically it shows the inner consciousness of a few thoughtful men has become the outer society in the east as well as the west.

All this is awareness. We can not say we are all the same and walk away.

What is collective? A very relevant K quote which I remembered in this context:

K: I am asking sir, do you know what that word means, indivisible, who is whole; the word 'whole' means healthy, sane and also it means holy, H O I Y. All that is implied in the word 'individual', indivisible, therefore he is whole unbroken, not fragmented. Are you that individual? Or are you the collective and you think that you are the individual? - which is part of the deception of the collective. Go on sir, think it out, watch it.
So the problem is: can the mind observing this fragmented entity, calling itself an individual when it is really the collective, can that mind free itself totally and be whole? And to do that you have to have a mind that can look, not fragmentarily as me and the not me, as an American, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and all that nonsense, but look at things as they are. Can you look at yourself and see you are the collective, through your education, through your tradition, through everything, you are the collective. And look at it, not try to escape and say 'I must be individual', be with that, look at it with all your attention. Then observe how fragmented you are, with your desires, contradictory desires, self-deception, hypocrisy, wanting, not wanting, violence - you follow - broken up as an artist, as a business man, as a family man, as a factory man. You follow? All that fragmented. Look at it. And as you observe it, as you see it without moving away from it, out of that comes total perception.

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

Sir, one more thing. Biological differences are real, man woman, white, black brown... But why nation/state? Is not the entire west white mostly? Is not the entire africa black mostly? Pakistan, India, Bhutan, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Tibet, Srilanka, Nepal all share some common blood. Genetically, Indians have a racial link running from China to Rome! But we are whitewashing the true commonalities and true differences with man-made commonalities and man-made differences like nation/state? Can we see the truth as it is? Without distortion .. And then we can go beyond and see the common self...

I do not think we are aware of this , we are trying to take a short cut may be?

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

Why are we discussing biological differences? The nation state, is simply an extention of the human mind, that is why I use it as an example. I started a forum on the subject of diversty. Maybe we could go further there?

everything is order.

not just what we perceive as order, but everything.
(which is why we are so surprised when we find patterns in randomness, to find that order is present even in what we think is disorder)
It only follows that the same thread of order runs through all existence - what system is truly isolated? (it is we who try to learn by considering any system as isolated. but something still connects every sub-system to extra-systemic worlds in a never-ending network of influences and relationships).

if so, then the order that forms our own consciousness is the same order that is somehow connected to the order on another planet, billions of light years away, or at the center of the sun, or within the dna of a lowly creature.
perhaps, being an integral part of this order is what is called relationship, or being integral to the world.
and if this is so, then every single thought that passes through one's mind is also part of this order.

yet, within this order, there are aspects of order.
all aspects are, but, mere perspectives and cannot define the totality of this order. so, to say that "no description can fully define it" is to say that a candle doesn't fully describe all energy.
(to even attempt to describe it is to describe a dance without being the dancer. you may describe it in very beautiful words, but you will not know the dance.)

(even so, it is a fact that the tree is contained in the seed and the seed is contained in the tree).

consider that time is the single thread which stitches all order into coherence. consider that all aspects of order has its own pace which ties into this common thread of time.
consider that a rock has a greater response time to a stimulus than a tree, and a tree has greater response time than the nervous system of a mammal. yet, discounting time, a rock alters in response to changes in its environment as much as a mind.
thus, the nervous system of a mammal is more real-time manifestation of all order. (there is no higher value to this real-time nature, of course, since all value is based on perspective)

perhaps, consciousness is the real-time glimpse of order - a tiny, limited spark of order perceiving its own self, with a growing suspicion that it is not really limited, but as unlimited as the same order which pervades distant galaxies. an order which is the same, whether one million years before or after. consciousness as a phenomenon in which order can manifest as a live experience. perhaps, order can experience itself at different levels in different ways. "you" are simply one such level.

consider that "tat tvam asi" is routinely translated as "you are that". However, if one relooks at the word "tat", it also means spread, stretched, expanded.

so what tat tvam asi also means is - you are infinite, unmeasurably spread.

all order is one. so there is no distinction between the mind and the genes and the patterns of order that rule the ecosystem or the solar system.

• pankaj sapkal

Pankaj Sapkal wrote:
so what tat tvam asi also means is - you are infinite, unmeasurably spread.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Dear Pankaj Sapkal, Thank you for giving another meaning of "Tat tvam Asi"/THOU ARE THAT, now I can understand the significance a bit deeper.Nice to have met you here
Regards,
Krishnan

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell