F: Would you say, sir, that that which we call the individual is a misnomer.

Krishnamurti: Not only misnomer...

F: Because of our ignorance.

Krishnamurti: It's not only misnomer, I don't think it exists: because you have a separate name and a bank account, but your consciousness is like somebody else, everybody else.

F: But sir, if we say that it doesn't exist at all, then we would have to say that humanity also doesn't exist.

Krishnamurti: No, I'm going to go into it. So if we see that, if we not only see it logically, reasonably, factually, it is so - you're born in India and I was born in Europe, or in America. We go through the same hell, through the same rat race.

M: So, may one, just to be sure so far, that it's clear - there is nothing apart from that in the human...

Krishnamurti: Wait, I'm coming to that. In that stream, man has invented gods, rituals, the saviours, the Virgin Mary, Krishnas, all that - they are all part of that stream. They've invented these.

M: But apart from the invention, the illusions, is there any other something?

Krishnamurti: Yes, is there anything spiritual.

M: Apart, other than that.

Krishnamurti: Yes. I understand. Is there anything that is not of time.

M: Of the stream.

Krishnamurti: Is there in the stream - you're asking, aren't you? - anything which is not man-made, let's call it for the moment. Is that what you're asking?

M: I'm not sure. If what you mean is, is there something that is not of the stream in the human mind, consciousness, whatever you want to call it.

Krishnamurti: Man has invented that there is something.

M: No, non-invention. Something real.

Krishnamurti: Not in that stream. Not in that river.

M: I'm not asking if there's a something else in the river, I'm asking if there's something else in man except the river.

Krishnamurti: Nothing.

M: Because...

Krishnamurti: No Atman, no soul, no God - nothing. Don't accept it, please.

M: There is enormous implication in that.

Krishnamurti: There is tremendous implication.