Hi Paul, I am wandering about the meaning of (mind and heart). I do understand that the mind is containing every thing, it would be the whole human with all the different aspect , going from personality , thought , quiet mind , sharp mind , religious mind, little mind , including senses, emotion and brain. Mind is the term that most of us are familiar with, (he has a beautiful mind) would be something that most people could relate to. When we use the word heart, (you have a heart), (a good heart,) (you will need a strong heart) we are talking about a quality that we see in human which could be interpreted has, strong , tough, ( I am working with a man that has heart) meaning that he is a good worker, sturdy, he is not frail. To have heart would mean that he is strong and also good. In a religious sense, sacred heart, pure heart, holy heart, would mean purity. I was wandering if you could write to me a few word on how you see mind and heart.

Also as an example: lets say that I have a brother, we have not talk for many years, of course the disagreement is childish and I have this contradiction within, my mind is immovable, does not want to move but a the same time I would say that my heart is wanting to result the difficulty, I am in a state of contradiction. Here my heart could be my quilt, telling me that I am wrong in my position and I should be open to result the problem. My heart here could be the product of my religious conditioning? Here my heart is wiser, my mind is refusing to give in to.

Muad dhib wrote: jean-m girard wrote:

To have heart would mean that he is strong and also good. hello jean m..I posted here recently what k meant by heart, I have lost the quote , by he was saying that for him he is using heart when he mentions the whole mind, he added it was a matter of speech for him..

Thank you, it make a lot of sense to me, I think you hits right on the nail , have a nice day.

There is without any doubt to me, a different reality in front of us when we are in a state of observation. I f I am stuck in my thought and I am looking at the world, every thing is gloomy there is no life to it. So of course I try to keep my self as much has I can in a state of observation to have a more objective look on life Without trying to force it or discipline myself but I still have to make this movement into observation, I don’t think this would be call discipline but we could call it an action.

Knowing that I can stay in that state (observation) temporarily, is all I can do, because thought always move in, to break off that state of mind. So I keep doing the movement to go back in observation, I can keep doing it for hour and days. I am wandering if it would not be more realistic to approach the state of observation has a wave that go in and out, if we consider all the other piece of the mind that are functioning at the same time, thought and emotion inside and every thing outside of us. It seem to me that if I don’t react to the thought moving in, because I had made the motion to be in observation, I think that I still maintain that state when the thought come in. When I decide to observe it seem appropriate that thought would move in, that state or the decision to observe is a movement toward our thought so isn’t it normal that thought move in? Now if we familiarize our self with the state of observation and we can bring it back without thinking about it , is seem ok that thought/emotion would be there, there has to be something to observe when we are in that state. Being in observation is like a multi-task, we are observing many things at the same time, maybe I should say every thing at the same time. When I say that thought is breaking my observation , am I not saying that I am reacting to what I see? Isn’t it the reaction to what we see, that is breaking off observation?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: An effort made without an expecting end result is taken over by the awareness.

Let me say what you are saying to see if I get your point. I am making an effort and awareness of my end result, in my observation will cancel out the effort and not distorted what is being observed? May be I still value effort?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: The observation is,then distorted.

I was adding on my effort (end result) on top of my observation, the idea of observation is to cancel out the thought process, not to add on.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Is this not directional/goal oriented action? If yes, then it should be called reaction.

Yes I would call this a reaction, I thought that this movement going from thought to observation was an action, I was mistaken. After experimenting today I have seen that it was not observation but my effort/reaction to go on observation. I thought there was no reaction to this movement but I was wrong there are effects. From what I saw today could it be that awareness of thought brings back the observation?

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: When you decide ...this decision comes in the form of thought, doesn't it? So, the thought process has already started. Our mind compulsively lives in occupation and will endlessly keep on supplying thoughts one after the other, won't it?

For some raison I just thought it had to do with will, I could not see how I could move into observation any other way. I think I can see it better tonight, observing my reaction/effort which I was calling observation showed me I more natural way. I think it is possible that I did not have the assurance that it would happened so I decided to take care of it myself. You see thought was saying I will take care of it for you.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: For doing this one has to understand "negative thinking" which is not related to positive and negative thoughts as we understand them. One has to understand the relation between the inner emptiness and ending of thought rather than learn a new way of moving awareness in and out.

Thought is so full of speculation about all the good thing that will happen to me, of course we could call this positive thinking and also very deceiving. Negative thinking is the state of mind when every thing is black. When you talk about negative thinking, that you are making allusion for ex: (I don’t know) a state of mind which is negative in a sense of not knowing.

When you talk about (inner emptiness and ending of thought) I may have touch that state of mind , not sure a understand it. Today , while working I fell emptiness realizing that my effort was not there only for observation but all ever my life, with my friend , family, working relation , there was always and effort for every thing. While realizing this today, this made me felt empty; it was like I was losing something big. This seeing is changing a lot for me. Writing about it right now is making it stronger.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: I think you have your heart on valueing the effort

Yes I agree with you. I did not see that before.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Yes, it could be provided it is not an alteration.Please observe todays kinfonet quote of JK.

24 hour ago I was under this impression that my effort was observation; if I look back I can see that the effect of managing my thought was not that great. So this is a plus for me I have learn something. Now we are saying my thought was unveil, expose and at the same time alter it’s approached with a new understanding and could keep me going like that for a while until a discover that this movement was a new learned movement from ego/thought? At this point I can only see that this movement had an effect on my thought, it did end it, so I would encourage it. I have exposed that my effort was not observation, which is great, are you saying that maybe 24 hour later, ego has already learned a new way and has modified it self so that it could served a copy of what I have learned yesterday? The yesterday experience has already alter into a copy, this copy in a long run is has poisons has the thought that effort is observation, it was great yesterday and it has already become memories/alter? This understanding could applied to every moment of our life, has soon has it is understood, it no longer applied?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Could we be as sensitive to the illusions of the thought as we are sensitive to the physical threat?If that thing happens then the awareness is going deep down the entire psychological being.Isn't that so?

Yes we are sensitive to a physical treat, we can feel the smallest change of heat or cold, the smallest thing touching you body. Could we be has sensitive to the illusion of thought? When it comes to thinking, what are we looking for? It’s authenticity? It’s veracity? It’s creativity? When I leaned something new there is a bit of a vacuum that happened in me. Sensitivity with the illusion of thought has some thing to do with the wake it leaves behind doesn't it? Being able to read this wake has a lot to do with understanding your mind. I am and artiste painter, of course my sensitivity about line, color , shade has develop considering all the hour I have spend in from of a canvas, I had relation that was very telepathic, where the information is being transfer and understood by the whole body, all that is sensitivity , isn’t it? If there is something in life that has potential to develop, expand, is sensitivity. There is also a color , a shape , a sound, to thought, we may only need to learn to read the code.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: All knowledge about 'emptiness' is counter productive. What is one going to do about it? Is there a way that will give understanding of not making it an issue that keeps disturbing the peace of mind?

I started to fill emptiness before I started to worry about it, I did not dwell on it , I simply move on, but now I know that it is there. My worry was not there because of the emptiness, it was there because I felt that people could see a difference in my way of being, I thought there were a detachment happening from me . I have tried to figure it out, I thought some kind of buffer zone and not really wanting to dive into it…lol So you are saying intensify it, accustom your self to it but don’t try to understand it?

I think that if I look back to all the projection and goal I had embarking into this adventure, which was not emptiness; this may help to open myself a bit more to the unknown. I have to see; felling empties seem to have had an effect on other at this point, I means the world around me, this may be just speculation but it did seem better organize some how...lol

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: For doing this one has to understand "negative thinking" which is not related to positive and negative thoughts as we understand them.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: PS: Normally an idea must seen as we would see a bottle containing the poision,then we are sensitive.Do we see like that?

Yes you are both making a reference to negatif thinking, I keep discovering about it, on top of keeping us alert, it is also a beautifull state of mind, very calming. I think there is a lot to say about not knowing.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: How our consciousnes of this issue of market influences our psychi, that is more important if we are to avoid further illusions.

When some one has enough money to take care of his security, what does he do with the rest that is coming in? Money then becomes entertainment doesn’t it? The search for better, the pleasure of seen you bank account grow, refining your look trough more refine product. The majority of people here in America are in between the very rich and very poor; in the US I believed there are 22.4 percent of poor people or 39.5 million, so we are saying that there are about 325 million people that are comfortable and are looking for a little more. There is also organization like (Friends of the Earth), that have became international, offering good product and are base on a more reasonable distribution of the profit , renewable commerce/business which we should support, a step in the right direction. Those merchant (Friends of the Earth), are taking more and more space in the market because of the education they do, every one agree with a more fair commerce and feel good about it.

Has you say cravings, urges, gratification, ambition is certainly the root of the problem. While we still admirer ambitious man, because of their wealth, people are staving. We are all willing to make an effort to get a little more. We also know that a little more will not do, this will go on for ever. You are asking (How our consciousness of this issue of market influencing our psychic?) I would say that consciousness of this issue, make us probably disappointed of our achievement. We look back and with regret, see time in our life where it would been possible to do better with our money. So this system is keeping all of us in a state of dissatisfaction, it is keeping us in a depress mode, because must of us don’t really believe that will ever be able to get out of this cycle. For other and I will put myself in this category, because money was less important, we venture ourselves into exploring other possibility so came to accept that money will not make me happy, so we have invested part of our energies else where and the problem remain, we are still not happy. So I don’t see much difference between, some one that dream to be rich, someone that try to be rich and someone that is rich? So I am too reasonable to hope that all system crash, because I can imagine the misery that this would bring about. I think we are stuck, our psychic is stuck, between wanting more and not wanting less, this system which is surely degrading is keeping all of us, juggling with state of illusionary stillness, they also call it public relation. Good question, you make me wander how would be life without all this hope for more.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Is it really correct to blame the bussiness people alone for all the ills of the banking bussiness, stating that it is their self centred/ self-protective nature that is sole responsible for the turn of things.

I think it is correct to critic any social system, (banking or government or business) specially when they seem to favor only a few amount us, has they say the 1%. One think that is sure is that if those big corporation are surviving and making big profit, is because a lot people a supporting them. I do support them in a way that I am dealing with bank and other corporation to get what I need. If we build a trap to catch a rabbit how much responsibility will have the rabbit wicht is getting caught?

Dan Mohad Dib wrote: any business will always lead to the same situation...is my deep deep view.. any business idea in the mind shall end, if not dream on...the last 10 000 years will be the next 10 000 years..in my views.. greed cannot lead to goodness, never..

K ( I can only see the total movement of greed when there is no direction - to get rid of it, to stop it, to suppress it - all that prevents me from looking at greed totally. Right? Because, as we said the other day, direction is fragmentary, which is a motive? Motive is fragmentary. The motive gives a direction and therefore it is fragmentary. When we have a directive, that I must get rid of it - greed - then I have moved along a certain direction, therefore direction prevents me from seeing the whole.)

Hi Dan, I assume that I am not talking to a wealthy man, maybe a man that is in a similar situation than I, working hard for his money and not a lot to show for a life time of work. I never saw myself has a greedy man; I have share what I had. It seem to me that your word are directed to business man and has mention here a direction or a motif would be fragmentary so would not give an accurate picture of the whole.

K (I am not greedy for wealth, or money, position, status and all the horrors, but I am terribly greedy to have truth - you follow? - to find truth.)

May be the second statement of K would give us a better example of the greed, that we share has people like us that have been seriously looking for real answer, if we want to have a wholly understanding of greed? I have not research the subject that much, this may be the first time I ask my self if I am greedy to have the truth? We may ask ourselves if being greedy here would have anything to do with keeping the true for ourselves? Has greedy people we could enjoy flashing it left and right without ever giving any clue on how to find it, this would be greed doesn’t it? If we are one mind, greed has to be in every one us? It is certainly not limited to only rich people. How does greed would manifest with people like you and I that have find a precious source of information?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: That effort of observation is not observation is defenetly a great relevation.If effort is not going to interfere in the observation any more it is a fact to you, otherwise it is knowldge stored in the memory.

In our effort or desire to understand better, by trying different possibility at some time or a other I would say that we may touch a reality has describe by K. I like to call it an instant of grace. This revelation came to me as a fact, not only for a better understanding of observation but also reveal a pattern that touched every area of my live, this simple seeing of effort being part in my observation touch all of my other relation ship, almost like always trying to be a bit more, a extra push within to be more acceptable. So I have identified this experience has being real, but I have also recognize that it is now store in my memories. This experience also has left in me a new understanding, may be a deeper one, on the necessity of challenging our own understanding with a negative approach has we talk earlier in this conversation. This quote by K is giving light onto what I am trying to say here.

A mind which has responded to challenges partially, and therefore created misery for others and for itself, sees that all responses and all challenges are limited; therefore the mind asks itself: Can the mind be the challenge as well as the response? This means an astonishing state of questioning itself and itself responding and knowing its limitations and the limitations of its own challenge. And the next step is: can the mind be in a state in which there is no challenge and no response? Where will that lead to? Why should it lead anywhere? Please follow this, the thing of beauty is in itself, there is no need for it to be something else, to be more. You understand? A thing that in itself is pure - what need is there for it to be more? Bombay, 1961, 4th Public Talk

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Who many of us really hold on to that I idea of meterailism, except as long as the thought process sustains the pleasure principle of materailism, keeps away the pain.

We may all be greedy when come time to try to save what sustains pleasure in us.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: So what is the point of talking about an young , pretty, self conscious lady taking a stand on her courtship?

I don't know, what is the point?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Is psychological moment of extrovert would be same as the corresponding moment of the introvert?

Exaggeration inward and exaggeration outward, you are talking extrovert, introvert, I am wandering if all those word could mean the same thing? I have a history of being a man that has tendencies to exaggeration; at 14 years old, coming out of a man school for broken home, one of my last report was, I had tendencies to exaggerate. Which mean nothing to me and my family, but did stuck to my mind. Of course today I understand better and it is clear that we are talking about invisible scare left by negative conditioning.

Those two aspects of me always manifested in different situation, if I had assurance that I had some influence with people around me I became extrovert, if not I was introvert, at the same time admiring people that could stay themselves in all situations. All that invisible injury goes from wanting to control, so that we could feel some importance in the eye of other. Always depending on other to have a sense of self evaluation, (they like me) so I can use them to get what I want, (manipulation). Of course at the same time exaggeration inward, introvert period where I lose myself into trying to figure out what is wrong with we, with very little knowledge to back me up. Are we not taking here about neurotic behavior, daily psychos? Normal enough to function in our society, being able to keep a job, recuperating on weekend and evening and never resolving any issue, Depending on sexes , drug, cigarette , movie and unable to keep serious relation. Often find yourself with similar type of people.

I think that all of that is emotion, swinging from pos to neg and neg to pos, no balance emotionally. A negative conditioning, breaks the normal circle of emotion so you find yourself always trying to compensate for those injuries, and in my view, introvert and extrovert are two manifestation of fundamental personality characteristic. One of the difficulties when I was young is that I thought I was the only one like that, today I know that a lot people are trying to deal with this.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Is it enough if both of them understand the principle of pleasure and pain?

I think this is the way to resolve those difficulty, this idea did help me to better understand.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: I wonder if their moments are same?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: I wonder if I can guess about their extovertic and introvertic moments? could they be same?.

You are asking if they both happen at the same time? I did not see it happenning at the same time. Like plaisure and pain, I saw frist plaisure and then pain,but now that your mentioning it,in my desire for plaisure, there is also the seed of pain. No I did not see extovertic and introvertic manifesting at the same time. It woud certainly make sense if they both happen at the same time, because they originat from the same place.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: That is not what I was looking out for.Once the individual has the understanding of the entire process of desire, the inner moment and outer moment could be the same. That is the individual would be a perfect extrovert as well as a perfect introvert.Is this true?

Non, this sentence would not be true, because if we have understood the entire process of desire, the need of being outer or inner would be irrelevant.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: All these postngs are intened for that.Is that correct?

I would think that this is correct, I have to stretch my self out to understand the meaning of your word and I have to stretch myself in to uncover my response to your word.So yes the posting here demande a balance between the input and the output.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: .Do we really require theories for that?

Yes this a good point, we very often focus on the disturbance (crave) and forget that the thinking process can be so much more if we become conscious of it. It can be compare to the heart, as long as it is doing the work it was intended to do, we don’t need a diagnostic. But contrary to the heart the thinking process can learn and has great potential of going deeper and wider, I could also say that it can be creative.

Do we really require theories for that?

There is no need for theories (diagnostic) if every thing runs normally.I can do all kind of thing without any need to explaine myself.

This conversation may be moving into intensity?

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: What is it that plays important role in this understanding of the self from moment to moment, ArjunaRao?

Form moment to moment there is no center.The self is non existing?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: self/psychological I/ego(the centre gets dismentaled simultaniously), it reduces to a pointer on the consciousness of the individual as long as the life in the organic body exist, which remains harmless

Well said, we could also call the tip of consciousness, with out the residue of the self? Consciousness, being the accumulation of all our live? The tip of consciousness being the means we have for all relationship, being the receiver and the sender, the correspondent, being the attentiveness, the awareness between the outer and inner?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Once there is comlete understanding of the self from moment to moment,

So there is no more psychological 'I'

max greene wrote: These are the two parts of the human being.

We are the self (clear) or the consciousness and you are saying together with intelligence in the present moment. Are those the two parts that you are talking about? Which is what we realy are?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: I think I reacted to the over dominace of an ambistiousman in the bussiness world in one the postings, instead I thought that a self-discovered entraprenueour would serve our purpose in a bussiness world. Is that really possible in the present situation?Keeping apart whether we can find one such person presently or not, let us examin how such a person is going to make a difference in the bussiness world.

I think that a good business man that would discover him self trough K teaching, would probably try to line up his product so that it could response to his inspiration. A good business man, understand that he has to believe in his product in other to sell it and be a success. Artist do that all the time, they want their product to represent them, so they keep modifying until it translate exactly what they are or feel. I have personally modified the subject my painting since I started to read K. So when I show my painting and people show interest, wand to talk about them, my response is perfectly line up with my inspiration, there no contradiction. Do I make a difference with my customer, I think it does. Creativity usually touches people. I would not put every business in the same categories, may be art has a class of it own.