Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Jean Gatti's Forum Activity | 9185 posts in 3 forums


Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Sandeep Saroha wrote: A thought (or idea) replaced by so-called better thought (by any mean) is still a thought. its all the same game again.

Right Sandeep, this movement of thought is quite normal and is not a problem in itself. Thought is a tool that can help you to decondition your mind and its repetitive patterns of behaviour, beliefs etc ...

So to give an image: thought can be the thorn that you use to take off another thorn out of your finger ...

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: My how time flies

Hope Ropa wrote: YOU WILL SPEND ETERNITY FOREVER IN A HOPELESS VOID EITHER FILLED WITH FIRE OR DARK AND COLD, WITHOUT ANY POSSIBILITY OF EVER SEEING YOUR LOVED ONES AGAIN!!!

What is described here is thought, no ?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: My how time flies

Hope Ropa wrote: I'm amazed at how susceptible we are as a species.

Are you a "species" ?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

randal patrick wrote: Please explain...sans thorn analogy....how adding a layer of thought/knowledge can help decondition (dethought) a mind burdened with layer upon layer of repetitive thought/thinking?

Randal, it is not about adding another layer of thought ... it is about 'unknitting' conditioning patterns ...

When you see how your beliefs, ideologies, desires etc ... lead to disorder, violence etc ... isn't it possible to question those beliefs and 'deactivate' their power on you ?

When you see the consequences of what you do, isn't it possible to question your behaviour and change your 'mindset' ?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Tom Paine wrote: If the irrational man suffers enough, he may begin to question himself.

Yes Tom, seeing this with you ... suffering is the best teacher of all ...

:-)

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Tom Paine wrote: But I think you may be correct Jean, that thought leads one to question and eventually leads to the point where you actually 'see' (have insight into) what's going on in the trap of conditioned thought which creates the 'me' and it's world.

Yes Tom, of course thought is not enough because thought in itself is mechanical, not intelligent, but the combination of thought and seeing/observation leads us to a better understanding of those mechanisms. This is kind of 'refinement' of our thought patterns. And this is also called 'learning' (but learning to know ourself).

And as was said in another thread, in order to escape from a prison, you must first study and understand thoroughly all the details of the prison ... and ego/mind/conditioning is a prison, no ?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

G M a wrote: The significance of suffering, i think is that it might give the initial freedom to look (probably by the temporary dismissal of self) at oneself totally which is a prerequisite for self knowledge.

Right GM, suffering means "there is something wrong with 'me'" ... so we have to investigate what is wrong and what is 'me' ...

In fact trying to explain suffering has been the starting point of the Buddha ... so he had to investigate the nature of "me" ... and finally he found that "me" is unsubstantial ... empty ... nothing

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Satya Prakash wrote: So, study and escape have cause-effect relationship, Jean?

When you study deep enough your prison of ego ... you will find that there is no need to escape ... because there is nothing to escape ...

Knowing yourself is the key to freedom.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

randal patrick wrote: are you talking about psychological modification or total transformation?

Total transformation is a myth ...

Why is there a need to change form ? Are you a "form" ?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 04 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

randal patrick wrote: Are you free Jean? Or just talking $h!+?

When asked if he believed in God, Einstein answered:

"Tell me what is your definition of God, then I will tell you if I believe that" ...

So Randal tell me what is your definition of freedom, so I can answer you ...

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Satya Prakash wrote: What action would accomplish this 'study'?

Silent attention ... is this an action ?

Satya Prakash wrote: And from where will one carry out this study programme?

Silence, stillness ... is this a place ?

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Satya Prakash wrote: What is incorrect in stating that conditioned mind lives in a kind of prison when there is seeing/understanding of limited nature of the activities of the conditioned mind?

When you see your own limitations, you cannot be that ... you are the witness of the prison, so out of it.

What you observe, you cannot be that.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Satya Prakash wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote: Sandeep Saroha wrote:

is there any way out? Silence ... Attention ... Observation ...

Jean, is this the right reply to a man living a life full of conflict, suffering, fear etc?

Well Satya, it might be a short reply , but it is not wrong.

As K put it :

"Now the negation of disorder is silence. Any movement of thought will only breed further disorder. "

In daily life, maybe this silence could be reached by having some vacation/holidays or some silent retreat ... or just contact with nature, a walk in forest, contact with an animal (a cat can be very appeasing) or a good sincere friend who listens to you without judgement, a creative activity, even a selfless disinterested action can bring you peace of mind ...

(and btw 'vacation' precisely means emptiness, vacuum)

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Tom Paine wrote: But to get to the point where one sees that conditioning is a prison is a big step.

Right Tom, this is a decisive step.

When you see the prison of thought/conditioning, then you are already out of it ... because you are now the witness of it.

And what you witness/observe you cannot be.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Jack Pine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote: And what you witness/observe you cannot be.

Have you ever heard or read this: "The observer is the observed"?

Lol, truth is oftentimes paradoxical :-)

Both statements are true ... this is the irrational side of spirituality.

:-)

Another way to say it would be:

We are nothing ... consequently we are all.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Ravi Seth wrote: The world is full of advaitans, krishnamurtites,Ramanites,Buddhists,Jains,Christians etc. etc.

Lol, you are the world ...

:-)

... and btw Christians are not so 'advaitans' (non-duality) as they believe there are three persons in God ... this 'trinity' goes beyond 'duality', no ? ... (no offense meant to Christians of course :)

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Satya Prakash wrote: The obvious question is what do stillness/silence study when there are no contents present which are attributed to ego?

I am not sure to understand your question, Satya.

However to clarify this maybe, I would say that silence/stillness is always present as a background (like sun behind clouds), even when ego/thought is active. Else, without this 'presence' it would not even be possible to think at all (WHO would think ?).

From what I can see, thought is made of 'voices' (sometimes images too) coming in your mind (in a rather random process), but those voices are separated by short silences, and those silences are the most important part of thought, this is where thought is observed then evaluated by the next thought. All this process goes on until thought finds a 'coherence' which we call a 'solution of the problem'. Then thought can stop, for a short moment of course, and in this silence of thought (peace of mind) we feel happy ... because thought is a painful process which takes a lot of our energy.

Well I guess anyone here can see this Satya, no ?

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Jean Gatti wrote: those silences are the most important part of thought

... and this reminds me that a musician friend of mine once told me that the important parts in music are not the sounds, but the silences between the sounds ...

Like when seeing something so beautiful that you remain 'breathless', totally silent.

:-)

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Ravi Seth wrote: In oneness reside many and in many resides oneness.

Yes beautiful expression ... Manifestation (multiplicity) coming out of oneness.

Btw the third God of the Hindu Trimurti is generally known in Europe as Shiva, but I suppose that Mahesh is another name for Shiva ?

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Jean Gatti wrote: All this process goes on until thought finds a 'coherence' which we call a 'solution of the problem'.

Maybe this process of thought could be further developed here.

Thought appears when there is some kind of 'unrest' or threat. So the inner voices start rather compulsively and with no apparent order, rather chaotic. All the options are evaluated and then we come to some 'conclusion' (conclude meaning to close) which is generally a 'decision' for action and also a 'liberation' for our mind. This process was called by K 'psychological' thought, as ego is involved in some defense or acquisition mechanism (mostly desire and fear).

Then comes another kind of process (which K called 'technical' thought) which consists in organizing the modalities for action, fixing practical objectives, a planning etc ... And this last process is more focused, more concentrated and also less compulsive and random than psych. thought. It is less chaotic. Ego is not involved in this process, though not totally absent (as being the initial cause of decision/action).

Then comes of course the implementation of action (decision-based action or intentional action), often leading to disappointments as things do not happen the way we thought they should.

"What is" not being always aligned with "what should be".

And we see here that all this complex process is not satisfying because:

1) thought itself takes a lot of energy

2) while thinking we are distracted and may miss important life events (generally accidents happens when we are distracted by our thoughts)

3) implementing a decision/action leads to further frustrations and more than often conflicts (which take the rest of our energy)

And all this is the main cause of stress and burn-out.

And this is also called 'human suffering'.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Jack Pine wrote: "We" don't exist outside of thought.

Right Jack, "me" is a creation of thought, a "concept", as such non-substantial, non-existant, illusory, empty.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Jack Pine wrote: The thing you see and describe is not separate from the "you". There are not two different things, the observer and the observed there is just thought which separates itself from what it observes.

Correct Jack, there is no separation.

However what you are is NOT a thing, it is no thing, nothing.

Like space is nothing, however space IS. And without space there could be no objects. Space contains all objects but is itself not an object.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Tom Paine wrote: The Buddha got up to give his sermon to the faithful who were gathered to listen. A bird was chirping away and the Buddha paused to listen to the singing. When the bird finally finished his song, the Buddha spoke, "End of the sermon for today".

Yes Tom I love this story.

There is more deepness and beauty in the bird song than in any speech ...

And this reminds me the old saying:

"If what you are going to say is not more beautiful than silence, then keep silent"

:-)

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 05 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Jack Pine wrote: Jean, I think the point I am trying to make here is that since "you" are thought then "you" are the prison.

Well Jack the statement "you are thought" is true only when you identify yourself with thought, which is most common as thought is a mechanical/automatic and compulsive process which we are generally not even aware of. But once you see the thought, when you are aware of your thought, then you are no more thought, you become the witness of thought. This is why I say 'you cannot be what you observe' .

Jack Pine wrote: Also, the statements: "And what you witness/observe you cannot be" and "The observer is the observed" are not agreeing statements. They seem to contradict each other.

This contradiction is only apparent: the first statement "And what you witness/observe you cannot be" is clear enough, you cannot be at the same time the witness of something and the thing itself, so in the end, what you are cannot be anything observable, this is why Buddhism come very naturally to the conclusion that the nature of self (me/ego) is emptiness. This is also why you can never know yourself, because there would be a separation of the 'knower' and 'yourself' which is an absurdity. Some teachers take the example of the balance that cannot weigh itself, or the eye that cannot see itself.

Now what about K's statement "The observer is the observed" ?

It means there is no separation between the observer and the observed, but this does not mean that the observer is any particular of the observed objects, it just means that there is no separation between the observer and the wholeness of manifested world.

This is also why K said: "You are the world", he did not say "you are this or that specific object of the world", you are the whole of it, the totality. There is no separation, which means that the delimitation between "me" and the rest of the world is a fiction created by thought - a "concept" - and that this 'fragmentation' (to use K's vocabulary) or 'duality' has no reality.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 06 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Tom Paine wrote: It's not so simple when a strong emotion is operating to 'see' the anger, or 'become the witness of' anger. You say I cannot be the anger if I'm observing it, yet that doesn't normally stop the anger.

Right Tom, nobody said that wiping off years of conditioning is a simple task ... if it would be that simple humanity would have solved it a long time ago.

Of course you cannot stop anger immediately just by being 'aware' of it, but being aware of it already helps to soothe it, no ?

It must be understood that this 'de-conditioning' (or 'unraveling' of conditioning) is not immediate, it takes time to des-identify from our beliefs, ideologies etc ...

Also there is also an important 'social' factor that is seldom addressed even by K. When you abandon your identities, it goes with the abandon of the groups/communities associated with those identities. For example if you are Christian and abandon your Christian identity, you will also lose the Christian community which you are a member of, meaning most of your friends and even your family in some cases. Who is ready to be left alone ? This is not so easy to be rejected by your communities and friends ... and be left alone ...

Who is ready to face 'aloneness' ...

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 06 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

randal patrick wrote: ok, but just to remind, this exactly contridicts what J. Krishnamurti talks about.

Where is the contradiction ? Could you develop this please ?

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 06 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Jack Pine wrote: There is no you outside of thought .... I can't imagine what entity your believe exists outside of thought.

Of course Jack, there is NO "me" outside of thought ... because there is no "me" AT ALL.

Didn't I say clearly that "me" is a pure "concept" created by thought ? a non-reality ? There is no such "entity" ? There is only emptiness ... nothingness.

So I still don't see where you perceive contradictions here ?

??

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 06 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Jack Pine wrote: In some other statement you claim that you "can't know yourself". Yet K points to knowing yourself as crucial to understanding your conditioning and of how limited your thought, how fragmented it is and of how it will never understand the whole.

Of course Jack, it is important to fully know the prison of your own conditioned mind, how it works etc ... but THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU ARE.

In the end you see that you are NOT the prison, NOT the conditioned mind, NOT your thought ... you are neither this nor that ... hence there is nothing to escape from ...

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 06 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

Jack Pine wrote: K repeatedly pointed out that the first step is the last step. That thought is of time and therefore to move beyond thought does not involve time.

Of course Jack, there is no time needed to "move" beyond thought ... because you are NOT thought ... so you have already arrived ... there can be no becoming ... you ARE already "what is".

HERE and NOW.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 06 Aug 2013
Topic: Way out of thought?

randal patrick wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote: "you are thought" is true only when you identify yourself with thought,

Thought IS identification, that is what thought does, that is it's function. If the observer is the observed, how can you (the observer) identify/not identify with you/thought(the observed)?

Very simple Randal, thought happens as a mechanical and automatic process, it is a very compulsive process in your mind of which we are NOT aware. So we identify with thought because there is no awareness, in other terms there is NO 'observer' of thought.

But once the observer (awareness) comes in, then we can no more be the thought ... because we are now the witness/observer of thought.