Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Was K Depressed?


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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #91
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ana Flavia Lucas wrote:
I am quite aware of sorrow as it is, inside me and in the world ( as it is one) and I am not at all depressed by that.

Excellent..Thank you!:)

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #92
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

In the very "Act" of naming..labeling..we find yet more division..more comparison....more isolation...more of the same old..same..old! So the naming actually says more about the nature of the person naming.:)

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #93
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Perhaps what is neatly labelled 'depression' is simply discontent with the state of human disorder shared by us all. In other words - intelligence.

I think that is right Patricia. 'Depression' refers essentially to the energy state or energy functioning in a person. But it can equally be applied to the whole species at this point in its history.

There is no creative energy apparent, across the board.

The individual flails about against this backdrop and we have 'psychologised' this flailing motion, given it the convenient epithet 'depression' and individualised the issue, creating new scapegoats and doubling their pain.

The burgeoning of the psych-industry and its many offshoots, clinics, rehabs, therapists etc. over past decades amounts to a containment strategy, endorsed by the majority who are in fear of their own insanity.

Everyone should read the sections in 'Games People Play' on the social games called, respectively, Psychiatry, Addiction and Alcoholic - in order to gain some insight into the social dynamics of the medico-diagnostic relationship and its outcomes. AA is described in terms of a religious cult with priests and practitioners. And it is still so. My own son has just been through a rehab councelling program and it was just as Berne described.

As Malcolm X once famously put it, "They break your legs and then accuse you of being a cripple."

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #94
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
So the naming actually says more about the nature of the person naming.:

Yes, and 'labelling' is the publicly aggressive face of naming. When one labels another, they are both dead.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sat, 27 Aug 2011.

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #95
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I think that is right Patricia. 'Depression' refers essentially to the energy state or energy functioning in a person. But it can equally be applied to the whole species at this point in its history.

Hi Paul -

Yes it appears the whole human species may well be depressed. But if one squarely faces the fact of 'what is' - ie: the disorder of the human species - and stays with that fact, is there a place for depression?

Isn't depression in believing that things should be other than they are? In other words, doesn't depression come about when one moves away from the actual fact of what is actually happening - into 'hope'? Is depression the opposite to hope in the corridor of sorrows?

And in that moving away the place is created for all the 'social dynamics' you write of above, because we look to someone else to make it right - to make things other than they are for each individual personally?

We ARE humanity - yet insist on individualizing - and fall into a lonely black hole of depression (for which there is always someone happy to take money to 'help' - the blind leading the blind!)

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #96
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
because we look to someone else to make it right - to make things other than they are for each individual personally?

And so we made god..in our own image we made her/him/it!:) Blind leading the blind..perfect! Thank you!:)

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #97
Thumb_flower_4 Ana Flavia Lucas Brazil 28 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Patricia, Rick, Paul and all

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Is depression the opposite to hope in the corridor of sorrows?

I don’t think so, Patricia. It seems they are quite close. To hope is to project to the future, not being here now... Scape.

I would add to all the interesting posts up to now here on the theme (thank you) something I consider to be a fact: some people sometimes do feel such sadness that they loose volition almost completely. They can’t feed themselves, they can’t clean themselves, they can’t sleep properly, then try to and they (we) kill themselves (ourselves?). These people deserve proper and integrated care, don’t them? But what is happening is that the supposed "health" care doubles the pain, as Paul said.

Originally, the labels are meant to inform the treatment/action. Blind leading blinds…

What would be the right action? Should we do nothing? Just to be sensitive? All “care” is division?

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #98
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ana Flavia Lucas wrote:
What would be the right action? Should we do nothing? Just to be sensitive? All “care” is division?

Sorry I do not know!:(

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #99
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

One opposite of hope is disappointment . . . or maybe that is the opposite of expectation. But are we playing 'opposites?' I used to like that game when I was very young. But yes, depression may be the outcome of hope, dissapointed. I think it is often a more serious thing though. And sometimes it may even be simply neurological. Brains go crazy, don't they!

But it certainly involves the sapping of life energy, life-force and life-instinct. Much of the phenomena we see today which are described or diagnosed as depression have social causes, ultimately psychological but primarily the playing out of social confusion through the individual being.

We are psychologically prone to becoming depressed as long as we do not have intimate moment to moment knowledge of ourselves. We are overtaken by waves of ourselves, or by our own shadow.

Animals also can get depressed, cease to feed and nurture themselves. It is part of the life pattern. When animals continually fail, they sometimes become 'depressed'. Then there is post-natal depression and child (or cub) abandonment. Depression is not one thing, but many. Yet each variant is commonly evidenced by a dearth or dampening down of life-force. Depression literally means a downward pressure.

I never saw any evidence that K suffered from it. He could be testy, especially when his words came up against blocks that he could do nothing about. Perhaps he sometimes set himself unachievable goals - althoug he always spoke against goals. But the life work was dedicated to setting humankind absolutely and unconditionally free. That did not happen. I do not think it depressed him, but that passion he exhibited to get through to people did sometimes explode. I never saw anger in it but this is an easy interpretation to make.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sat, 27 Aug 2011.

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #100
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ana Flavia Lucas wrote:
some people sometimes do feel such sadness that they loose volition almost completely. They can’t feed themselves, they can’t clean themselves, they can’t sleep properly, then try to and they (we) kill themselves (ourselves?). These people deserve proper and integrated care, don’t them? But what is happening is that the supposed "health" care doubles the pain, as Paul said.

hello, well Paul is even far from the reality but I think he knows that.
I have been two years in the position of the poor guy,close to suicide ,and before too and the worse which could happen was people willing to help , because I tell you most are really pathetic and useless..

I personally refused any help ,psycho bla bla and so on, while 4 very close people around me went through traditional psycho bla bla, 3 of them just killed themselves, 1 needs permanent heavy pills...but as it is kind of official allowed treatment, it is never mentioned...

since childhood I know that pain, and I am now realising that I know ,to some extend , what to do with it,we just don't understand it, at all, something which I already knew when I was 13 or 14....the world is mad and to feel in utter distress is a sign of intelligence....it is the all mankind which is sick ..it is the entire world which needs a treatment.....

Occasionally I talk to people in deep distress , willing to help is the worse to do, willing to share what is deeply known is the right thing to do..then exist a real communication...

Take care of yourself...thanks for your words...

Dan.....

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #101
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Muad dheeb wrote:
hello, well Paul is even far from the reality

Oh . . . the further the better.

I gave up suicide when it started to become a habit. WE do not know enough about anything to call it reality. What we have is a manufactured facimile.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 27 Aug 2011 #102
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

As long as we assign meaning to life..we will see it according to our "preconceived notions?"

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #103
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Muad dheeb wrote:
the world is mad and to feel in utter distress is a sign of intelligence..

Yes Dan - I saw that also when very young.....

And you are correct in saying that one cannot 'help' another psychologically - but one can share. That is all we can do in communication.

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #104
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

RICK LEIN wrote:
As long as we assign meaning to life..we will see it according to our "preconceived notions?"

Yes Rick - and K said somewhere that if anyone has a so-called 'spiritual experience', it will be one based upon his/her early religious conditioning. In other words - it will be rooted in the conditioned/known.

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #105
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
WE do not know enough about anything to call it reality.

Ah - but there is always negation.

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #106
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I gave up suicide when it started to become a habit.

lol

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #107
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

Muad dheeb wrote:
the world is mad and to feel in utter distress is a sign of intelligence..
Yes Dan - I saw that also when very young.....
And you are correct in saying that one cannot 'help' another psychologically - but one can share. That is all we can do in communication.

Hello patricia, how has this "seing" and dealing with it has evolved with the chronological time for you ?

sharing is all we can do you say : yes we agree on that...with the awareness that sometimes it is from experience , or from logic , or inexplicable deep feeling, or repeating , or a guess ,and so on, then the sharing is all we can do :)...

Dan.....

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #108
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Muad dheeb wrote:
Hello patricia, how has this "seing" and dealing with it has evolved with the chronological time for you ?

Quite interesting really Dan.

When I was young I believed I must be a terrible person to see human disorder clearly in the way I did. It was only when I found K much later that it all fell into place, and the truly deep inquiry really commenced. Painful, challenging - but as honest in approach as it can possibly be.

And there was depression in those early years. Right up until it became clear that it is the self that becomes depressed. It is the owning - by the self - of feelings (as emotions) that brings about depression.

So one can only move from the personal to the general - it is a bigger picture that one is dealing with, and a genuine passion to find out what is at the root of all this human mess then takes over. It is no longer a personal quest, and with that insight, depression dissolves. One is left with great sadness. And with the compassion of realization that the whole of humanity is - in one way or another - facing this same dilemma.

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #109
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Ah - but there is always negation.

OH, that old dog can become a belief system too. Every guru talks of it.

Negation is an intellectual practice carried through with logic. It is not this, it is not that: negi negi.

Actually all learning is negation, because knowledge is built upon discrimination. All we are doing is ascertaining limis of the unknown. We never actually 'know' anything. We just discriminate in order know what things are not. 'This will not do this. This cannot be that.'

It is the belief that we 'know' that has to be understood as a belief and not a fact. Then things assume better order.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #110
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Actual knowing is also a limited field but it is not the function of intellect to know. It is the function of heart to know, and this knowing is the feeling of certainty which may have no corresponding intellectual proofs. And this feeling of knowing, which is the function of heart and not intellect, this subjective experiencing is the ever-changing foundation or flux of meaning in our lives. Without heart life lacks meaning - not one's life but life, the experience of living. Heart is meaning. It is its own field.

Intellectual meaning, intellectual understanding, intellectual knowledge, all these are utter failures for they depend upon abstraction from the flow of life. Only the whole of anything has a meaning, never the part, which is only function. And the whole is in constant flux. Intellect is not fast enough to grasp meaning because it depends upon stopping the flow and breaking it down into parts. Heart may be fast enough if it maintains itself as part of the stream, part of the current.

It is an odd thing that intellectual time and emotional time are entirely different. Intellectual time (or 'psychological time') is the stopping of the flow in order to analyse it. And our Reality is an intellectual construction made up of such a process of stepping out of the flow and looking back at it, calling it time. But when one is in the flow, where is time?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sun, 28 Aug 2011.

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #111
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
It is the owning - by the self - of feelings (as emotions) that brings about depression.

Wah!

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
So one can only move from the personal to the general - it is a bigger picture that one is dealing with, and a genuine passion to find out what is at the root of all this human mess then takes over. It is no longer a personal quest, and with that insight, depression dissolves. One is left with great sadness. And with the compassion of realization that the whole of humanity is - in one way or another - facing this same dilemma.

i am crying, Patricia in appreciation of this insight which without being personal releases the person inside us.......or shows there is nobody inside except the illusion!!!!.

This post was last updated by Ravi Seth Sun, 28 Aug 2011.

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #112
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
And there was depression in those early years. Right up until it became clear that it is the self that becomes depressed. It is the owning - by the self - of feelings (as emotions) that brings about depression.

Bingo!:)

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #113
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ravi Seth wrote:
i am crying,

. . . but Ravi, are you crying tears or crying "Bullshit!"

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #114
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
So one can only move from the personal to the general - it is a bigger picture that one is dealing with, and a genuine passion to find out what is at the root of all this human mess then takes over. It is no longer a personal quest, and with that insight, depression dissolves. One is left with great sadness. And with the compassion of realization that the whole of humanity is - in one way or another - facing this same dilemma.

Or has the depression merely been externalised, projected outwardly? This is what Angela is asking with regards to K.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #115
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
and a genuine passion to find out what is at the root of all this human mess then takes over.

patricia, thanks for the personal sharing ...I understand you way.
It sounds that you have solved a deep problem...:)

Dan.....

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #116
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ravi Seth wrote:
shows there is nobody inside except the illusion!!!!.

Wah!:)

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #117
Thumb_sdc10536 Juan Illan Gomez Spain 29 posts in this forum Offline

Ana Flavia Lucas wrote:
What would be the right action? Should we do nothing? Just to be sensitive? All “care” is division?

It seems to me that all 'care' based in the belief that there is a 'you' and there is a separate 'I' who has something 'you' lack cannot be but divisive; empathizing to destroy.

Paying attention might be the right action.

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #118
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
. . . but Ravi, are you crying tears or crying "Bullshit!"

meaning of "wah" (in urdu) means appreciation of the couplet sung by the poet.Patricia beautifully sung a complete poem instead.

It is in the appreciation of that i cried "wah"!

( but by asking to clarify you have murdered the poetry as well its appreciator.)

This post was last updated by Ravi Seth Sun, 28 Aug 2011.

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #119
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ravi Seth wrote:
but by asking to clarify you have murdered the poetry as well its appreciator.)

Naming..death of what is!:)

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Sun, 28 Aug 2011 #120
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
( but by asking to clarify you have murdered the poetry as well its appreciator

But Ravi sir, till there is appreciator, there is no true appreciation.(My guess;))

I don't know

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