Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The Urgency of Change…


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Fri, 21 Oct 2011 #1
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

Are we feeling it in any moment? For us, what is the significant of what K., and other relevant persons said about Mutation of the Mind?
It is something fundamental for us?

lobo de la estepa

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Fri, 21 Oct 2011 #2
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Why have I not changed?

Because I don't feel any urgency of change.

I don't know

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Fri, 21 Oct 2011 #3
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Problem for me is that I feel the urgency of change . . . later. It's the power of later.

Actually there is the urgency of change and the resistance to it from the existing patterns. Part of us wants to change. That is not good enough, is it!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 21 Oct 2011 #4
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 700 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Problem for me is that I feel the urgency of change . . . later. It's the power of later.

May I ask you what would it take for you to change? You in particular, but also, what do you think would it take to change the whole of mankind? I mean factually, what event, what fact? An enormous disaster, World War III?

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #5
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
Because I don't feel any urgency of change.

Oh! i fell it very strong both for me and you.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #6
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Actually there is the urgency of change and the resistance to it from the existing patterns

Is it like 'you are god but because of ignorance you don't know it'?

I don't know

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #7
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
May I ask you what would it take for you to change? You in particular, but also, what do you think would it take to change the whole of mankind? I mean factually, what event, what fact? An enormous disaster, World War III?

Is it not question for you? Or it is better to ask to others?:)

I don't know

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #8
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The 'urgency of change' cannot be something separate from the change itself.

It is separate if it comes from division/thought/image and it is clear that there is a limitation to anything that comes from idea/past.

Its urgencies, its desires, its speculation about a need to change, ANYTHING it does, the limited energy that thought is, cannot bring about a holistic change. Thought cannot but continue, that is its nature. And in that which continues there cannot be any real change, anything truly New.

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #9
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Angel Miolan wrote:
Are we feeling it in any moment? For us, what is the significant of what K., and other relevant persons said about Mutation of the Mind?
It is something fundamental for us?

Basically the mutation is the result of the understanding, which is not intelectual,which breaks down the pattrens in the brain. The focus needs to be on the understanding the thought process.It is not necessary to worry over the consequent mutation.

nothing

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #10
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

B Teulada wrote:
May I ask you what would it take for you to change? You in particular, but also, what do you think would it take to change the whole of mankind? I mean factually, what event, what fact? An enormous disaster, World War III?

Of course you may ask, B. But it is something I really cannot answer. I think that if one knew, actually know what change would mean, then change would already have happened. You cannot know in advance. What a good question!

Have world wars changed us?

K was asked if a crisis was necessary for change. He answered that there is already crisis. There is constant crisis, internal and external. But we have become deadened to it, desensitised to it. So, it is not crisis we need but sensitivity. There, it's the nearest thing to an answer you will get from me. But the answer is not the thing itself.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #11
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
Is it like 'you are god but because of ignorance you don't know it'?

Are you asking if I am god but do not know it?

Good Lord!

No, but I do not think that is a good simile, Dhirendra.

It is that this sense of urgency is also a part of a duality. We want to change whilst remaining what we are. How absurd we are!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #12
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Mina Martini wrote:
The 'urgency of change' cannot be something separate from the change itself.

Mina, you have the most annoying habit of saying something clearly, in twelve words, that it takes me 1200 words to make opaque!

Can you teach me that please. In twelve words. I will be the student. Dhirendra will be happy. Rick will say 'bingo.'

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sat, 22 Oct 2011.

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #13
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Basically the mutation is the result of the understanding

or . . . the mutation IS the understanding.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #14
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Can you teach me that please. In twelve words. I will be the student. Dhirendra will be happy. Rick will say 'bingo.'

LOL:)

Yes, exactly.

I don't know

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #15
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Well, I am going to lie in the sunshine now. How amazing, this is the UK in late-October and about 20 degrees. I prefer the global warm to the new mini-ice age. But, take your pick. (ice pick?)

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #16
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
It is that this sense of urgency is also a part of a duality.

Well, Paul, I use the word 'urgency' as a feeling to act urgently, without wasting a moment, as they say, a drowning person feel need of air.But you say, it is already there, is it?

I don't know

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #17
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes D, but you see all the emotions are felt 'urgently,' which is what gives them power. It is the feeling that one has to act right away, no time to lose, no time to gather new impressions and check things out.

So it is necessary to check the source of this urgency, is it emotional? You have to check it out. The sense of urgency alone can lead you to many traps. You do not know what is leading you or where you are going. You have to question the sense of urgency. Usually it is part of a duality. If it was real you would have changed by now. Right?

You come to a busy junction, Dhirendra. Are there not two senses of urgency. One says to run and get across, you are late. The other says, hold on, take stock, look both ways. It is this urgency to stop and check that is the most important guide, not the urgency to get across, to change, to be on the other side looking back.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sat, 22 Oct 2011.

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #18
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
or . . . the mutation IS the understanding.

Are you asking the coverse of my statement?I can not dare to state it,because I am unable to extend the logic,though I may feel it.

nothing

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #19
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
The other says, hold on, take stock, look both ways.

I feel this is just opposite of what you have described as first kind of urgency as below:

Paul Davidson wrote:
One says to run and get across, you are late.

Isn't there the third kind that involves 'seeing and doing'?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #20
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
The 'urgency of change' cannot be something separate from the change itself.

True, but if the change is not coming through, then there must be some reason for status quo, Mina. When the danger/crisis is not perceived as actually real or serious, then sense of urgency originating from it will not bring any change. What would be this factor of danger/crisis here and why is it missing?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #21
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Are you asking the coverse of my statement?I can not dare to state it,because I am unable to extend the logic,though I may feel it.

I was suggesting that it is not sequential. That true understanding already is the change we seek. There is nothing more to accomplish within mind. But this is theoretical for me as I have not done it.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #22
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
I feel this is just opposite of what you have described as first kind of urgency as below:

An emotion arises and we are being swept along by the sense of urgency that arises with it. Just then it is necessary to feel the urgency to stop and turn attention inwardly rather than to follow the urgency into an outward action. There is both an inward and an outward urgency.

Emotion says move outwards. Intelligence says move inwards.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sat, 22 Oct 2011.

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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #23
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Intelligence says move inwards.

Not Intelligence but past experiences urging one to be cautious. What would be the difference between the two?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 24 Oct 2011 #24
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

For me, to see and feel the nature of the situations very closely produce the need, the urgency to change. Take for example the trap of time, something that create the exigency of change in mind. I watch, understand and feel the nature of thought, how false time is part of it, whenever there is thought, analysis and conceptualization is present, that is: everything will be false and empty; in consequence, in this state my mind is trap in the false, in nonsense and to see that without escape produce the urgency to change. The urgency to do what we need to change:observe negatively all the process of thought and discard it. I don’t know if my bad English help me to communicate this. Regards, Angel.

lobo de la estepa

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Mon, 24 Oct 2011 #25
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Maybe it is best put in this way:

If the sense of urgency does not arise from a vision of the danger which is both clear and profound, then it is probably based upon fear rather than intelligence.

You do not have to run back from a precipice. The urgency is to stop moving towards it.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 25 Oct 2011 #26
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

If we can't stop moving from the known, from the sense of the Ego, the “I”, what is the meaning of life?

lobo de la estepa

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Tue, 25 Oct 2011 #27
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dear Angel, I have never looked for the meaning of life. I feel that meaning and value are inextricably linked. Life becomes more meaningful and valuable when you can move freely. So, maybe freedom is the factor.

A life lived freely and fully, creates its own meanings.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Tue, 25 Oct 2011.

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Thu, 27 Oct 2011 #28
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
A life lived freely and fully, creates its own meanings

Hello Paul: You can be sure we both are referring to the identical type of meaning without confer importance to any scale of values. But steel remain the life with absence of meaning for a centered mind. Angel.

lobo de la estepa

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Thu, 27 Oct 2011 #29
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes Angel, the self can only give self-serving meanings to life and relationship. If it serves self then that is its meaning. But something inside me rebels against the emptiness of that. Because such meanings have no basis in reality.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 27 Oct 2011 #30
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Reality is what thought thinks it is. Go beyond reality into nothing. Because without the center, the ego, the I, we are no thing and K points out that that is what freedom is. No thing.

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