Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #31
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
The human carries his history as an ongoing narrative. Why? Let us not consider it as a good or a bad thing, but just consider it, the functional reality of it.

This is my point. The animal hasn't the means to create a narrative, let alone carry it, and this is what distiguishes the self-conscious mind from the merely conscious. The animal's experience is no less the response of memory than ours, but the animal has no capacity for reflection upon its response the way we do. Our experience is reflected by a more complex linguistic system than the animal has. If I adopt K's language and reflection instead of owning mine, for instance, I deny what I am for what I believe I should be.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #32
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Sometimes its better to try to get a feel of what the other person is saying, Lidlo, rather than running in to knock their teeth out.

Even if they're false teeth?

Jus' kidding. Yeah, I agree.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Wed, 01 Aug 2012.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #33
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Imagination is a great tool, when grounded. The K-line however is that it should be put in a death cell. Many K-followers imagine they have successfully done so.

Hi Paul

Well I don’t agree with the above statement . Can you elaborate ? Is that your understanding of K or you want to attribute to some one else’s as you wrote for example of K- followers . As I always say we can write / share what has somewhat become a reality to us is’nt it ? One feels strongly that when K is understood however little that may be , in true spirit of the text , its about comprehending , enhancing , enriching and uplifting of all those fine human qualities of imagination , indomitable human spirit , will , and many more that come into existence in true discernment and not other wise .. .

Well Pual I remember reading your thread on Are You Happy ? but then as I joined this forum just around that time , I was sort of settling down , did’nt pay much attention to it , but then may be the truth of the matter is we all come here with different notions , different levels of knowledge , with various perceptions , which keep changing once we come in contact with different people and their experiences …. May be all this learning , changing , and adapting is also one can say , is very much K …… ! do you agree ?

Hey is Freud your favourite ? I think for me its always Carl Jung , the one last book I thoroughly enjoyed was of Jung's Dreams ,Memoirs and Reflections .( I hope the name is correct its been long I read that book ).

L .L

your post 31 is really good .

This post was last updated by pavani rao Wed, 01 Aug 2012.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #34
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

john Campbell wrote:
Inanity is in the eye of the..........?

True, John. I did say that 'I' found the humour lacked a relevence for me. I did not say it was irrelevent. I had not the energy to find out if there was relevence or not and so to me, it was inane. But, on the other hand, it seems to me that your humour often comes without an obvious point and I suspect it has no point - and that would make it objectively inane. That is my strong suspicion. I know you won't object.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #35
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
this is what distiguishes the self-conscious mind from the merely conscious.

I agree. I would use different words. I would say that the self-reflective mind has consciousness. I now use the term 'consciousness' to indicate the degree of accurate feeling of the mind for its own movement. In which case, the cat has a mind but not a consciousness of it.

The word consciousness has been dreadfully adulterated. It sometimes means self-reflective awareness. Sometimes it means simple sensory awareness. Sometimes it means, just to be awake.

I like the Sufi explanation of the human state of affairs. There are several states of consciousness - sleep, which we all know and in which there may be dreams; wakeful sleep, in which we are physically awake but lost in our own imaginings, our own narratives; wakefulness, in which we see and understand our imaginings and gain some conscious command of the image-making machinery; objective consciousness, of which 'we' can know very little, except for certain peak moments which come to us uncommanded. This latter state I have no knowledge of and no belief in, although I was, until recently, full of ignorent hope about it - and there lies the danger of explanations.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #36
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
the animal has no capacity for reflection upon its response the way we do. Our experience is reflected by a more complex linguistic system than the animal has

A certain kind of gravity operates, Lidlo, if I may be permitted to offer an account:

To the lower animals there is only the now. Experience lasts for as long as a challenge is being met. A stone is thrown into the air and falls immediately to the ground. This is the sensory response, immediate and then it finishes. Mind ends when the challenge ceases.

For the higher mammals and some other animals, there is emotion alongside sensation. Emotion lasts longer. It is like throwing some leaves in the air and being carried by the currents of air before falling to the ground. The emotional currents last longer because they represent physiological changes in the body, molecular responses, outpourings of chemicals. These are the currrents that keep that activity called mind going beyond the immediate challenge. But, when the body calms, mind ends, the leaves fall. The activities of mind last while the experience is still aloft and being carried in the currents of emoto-molecular response, which may even last some hours.

The human brain is more complex. It can take the image (memory) of an experience and recall it, conjuring up the same emoto-feelings and even the molecular responses. The thought of the thing that caused fear can itself recreate the fear. It is the ability of the mind to perpetuate, recall and manipulate one image with another that is the source of its vastly enhanced computational power. It can literally keep experience aloft for a lifetime. This lack of the authoritative pull of gravity which is always there in sensory experience creates a extremely low-gravity field for thought. Thought is perpetuated in time and thereby creates its own image of time. It creates a vast field of manufactured time which it fills endlessly.

It is not surprisinf therefore that this field attracts our attention more than does the transitory sensory phenomena. It is not surprising that we so organically feel that the 'me' is nothing but thought, for our attention is perpetually concentrated in that field.

But please take note of something Freud said way back: the ego is first and foremost the body ego. This implies that we see the ego only in thought to the extent that our atttention is trapped there. But lose physical proprioception of a limb and all hell breaks loose. In that respect, if you can get hold of a copy of Oliver Sachs 'A Leg To Stand On' which is his own personal testimony of such a strange event, much may become clear about the body-ego and its foundation for mind.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Wed, 01 Aug 2012.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #37
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Well I don’t agree with the above statement . Can you elaborate ?

Hi Pavani,

Imagination is the production, perpetuation and manipulation of image. It is the capacity of the human mind to operate in the field of thought. K called for the ending of the image-making machinery of mind and for it to be replaced by something he called 'direct perception of what is.'Lidlo has been debating this with Sudhir who believes in 'raw data' and the ending of memory - if I remember rightly.

You also mention 'will.' K was absolutely against that, too - although his opposition appears to me to be purely verbal as he himself seems to have had quite a strong will. The quote of the day, today, is illustrative of his earlier talks and his thinking and articulation of the issue in the 1930's:

"There are two kinds of will - the will that is born out of desire, want, craving, and the will that is of discernment, comprehension."

Later he put it more simply (dumbed down). "Will is the crystalisation or summation of all desire."

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #38
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Hey is Freud your favourite ? I think for me its always Carl Jung , the one last book I thoroughly enjoyed was of Jung's Dreams ,Memoirs and Reflections .( I hope the name is correct its been long I read that book ).

I think it was Dreams, Memories and Reflections, an autobiographical account of his life and work. A very good read! I like anyone who has something to say, Pavani. I am about to read Freud's 'The Uncanny' as I hope he has something intelligent and intelligible to say about how the emotion generates images about the uncanny, the unnatural, the sacred and the profane and projects such 'felts' upon the external world as 'facts.' It may say much about beliefs.

I have some favourites, but neither Freud nor Jung. The point is to get over one's favouritisms and respect all serious contributions. K wrote off all psychology and so deterred his followers from being open. That I think is a crime. Silly man!

Thanks for your input.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #39
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
. That is my strong suspicion. I know you won't object.

No objection whatsoever Paul, in fact I believe that the world could use at this time,a hefty dose of it.Strong suspicion can be a healty thing.It is also ,I believe,a healthy thing not to be looking for something profound round every corner.,meaning that perhaps comic ""relief"" needs no point,everyone is not expected to laugh,however,if no one laughs,then its pointless,and then you may have a point. Cheers-J

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Thu, 02 Aug 2012 #40
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Hey Paul 

The cat who has eaten the cream . Must have heard of this expression ! Well you are rather too good in bringing out various nuances , and tens of other dimensions , facets attached to any usage , and your remarkable knowledge in whichever field you decide to talk of is extremely impressive , and you know what , that is kind of become a signature style of yours '  

To understand the new the old must come to an end . Totally and completely . Otherwise any number of changes , counter changes will only show the continuation of the old . 

Here may I also add , the perceptions you have shared , the queries you asked various people of this forum are far more interesting , insightful in that poster of yours as r . j . Definitely they are not at all sounded wordy , too much showing of knowledge , and if I may say are boring to go through in the first place . 

Well Paul this post may sound like an open letter to you but believe me , brought out in an honest and In an inoffensive way , you are also most welcome to share and say anything  directly which strikes  about me and my writing style . 

Thanks .
Pavani

This post was last updated by pavani rao Thu, 02 Aug 2012.

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Thu, 02 Aug 2012 #41
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
that poster of yours as r . j...

Dear blossom on the breeze,
you are the third person here to whom I am making the same solemn promise. I have only ever posted here or any other K-site under the initials of my given name - rj.

That I am a heretic is a given but that I am an Englishman with far too much credibility for reductionist science is not, or at least so I mistakenly thought...

hmmm, I suppose the only thing for it is to start heckling my assumed alter-ego. Those who remain convinced that he is me and I am him can incorporate schizophrenic tendencies into their already bent image... this might be entertaining.

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Thu, 02 Aug 2012 #42
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
Dear blossom on the breeze,
you are the third person here to whom I am making the same solemn promise. I have only ever posted here or any other K-site under the initials of my given name - rj.

Is that what she was saying - that I am he as he is me and he is she and we are all together? Well, if I am you then there are very many of us and the numbers just keep growing. I think I can count eight people I have been accused of being. I must be rampant!

Such a nervous preoccupation that borders on paranoia must represent some background energy on this site. Do you think it may come from the teachings, RJ? Something to do with "You are the world?"

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 02 Aug 2012 #43
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
The cat who has eaten the cream . Must have heard of this expression ! Well you are rather too good in bringing out various nuances , and tens of other dimensions ,

Ah, but you asked for an elaboration Pavani. And I note your style of always starting as if in great praise and then going on to take it all back. I think I am more direct than you in this regard, and less 'gamey.'

But, the cat who has eaten the cream is a smug fellow, self-satisfied, pleased with himself or herself. That is not me, however you might image me - and you do seem to enjoy your little images!

best regards

Paul

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 02 Aug 2012 #44
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
...and less 'gamey.

LOL

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Thu, 02 Aug 2012 #45
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 700 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Here may I also add , the perceptions you have shared , the queries you asked various people of this forum are far more interesting , insightful in that poster of yours as r . j . Definitely they are not at all sounded wordy , too much showing of knowledge , and if I may say are boring to go through in the first place .

Dearest Pavani, you did not find them boring because they do not come from the same person.
Pay attention to the time of posts and you will notice this.

all the best

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Thu, 02 Aug 2012 #46
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
To understand the new the old must come to an end . Totally and completely .

This is a K-ism. Totally and completely false.

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Fri, 03 Aug 2012 #47
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
This is a K-ism. Totally and completely false

And . . . it sounds like a soap add - out with the old DAZ, in with the new DAZ.

There is no ending of anything in this universe, only endless transformations. One understands the 'new' (in so far as we can utilise this word) in comparison with that which has gone before. Otherwise, how would we even know it is new?

But the point surely is to understand the flow of transformations that we ourselves are part of. And it is all a movement in time.

The computer in front of you today is not the one that was there yesterday. It has undergone change, transformation. In the utilitarian sense, it is the same, but concretely, a great many things have happened that you will never see and never understand, no matter how much your intellect tries to give up the past to welcome the new. This is the ironic truth about simplistic intellectual formulations and all other slogans, they are the old, especially when they proclaim the new.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 03 Aug 2012.

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Fri, 03 Aug 2012 #48
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

• When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained. – Mark Twain

• He who has a why to live can bear almost any how. – Friedrich Nietzsche

• The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it. – Henry David Thoreau

Hi Paul

Well your post 43 is quite a moderate and if I can say is a respectable sounding answer to my post . The truth of the matter is its very difficult not to pay attention to the two protagonists of the play that keeps unfolding on this site regularly , neither you nor L .L for that matter can be side lined , least alone can be ignored , May I share here a revelation that occurred to me recently , either your act of changing your identity ? ( frankly speaking I don’t have a problem with that . in fact if one asks a direct question what is an identity ? just because the memory of a certain style of writing if it has become familiar with , that doe’snt mean the same person cannot come back with different styles of writing , if only to facilitate his / her line of inquiry ….. it proves lot of facts..... certainly the ability of the person to be able to do the act so well and it proves in ample measures that .... the search , is going on ….

L .L

Actually I don’t have problem with K , and luckily so far I don’t have problem with any body …. Any writing that appeals to me , or the merits of any thing in life which suits to my taste I accept / appreciate and if need be emulate ….. Neither I make heavy weather of a certain thing just because it is not upto my liking nor underestimate some one who is doing so ….. For me all this search and the struggle that relates to that search is a sign of living , learning and growing … perhaps ….. If we can quote K’s famous quote Truth ia a Pathless Land …. And we don’t know what works best for whom ? So may be your angry style of writing which often sounds like accusations of K , might be the true signs of a real search perhaps ……

( Hey but kindly note , these findings may change , and as they say as long as we are changing , letting go and making space for new revelations …. May be that is also a sign of living , learning and growing ……. ? : ) And you people need to appreciate me for the fact that I had to spend lot of time in going through the web to bring out those very appropriate sounding quotes which ofcourse are of my liking and to suit to both of your writing styles , :)

This post was last updated by pavani rao Fri, 03 Aug 2012.

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Fri, 03 Aug 2012 #49
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Hi Paul. Well your post 43 is quite a moderate and if I can say is a respectable sounding answer to my post .

Hi Pavani,

In real relationship it is essential to know the other one as much as knowing ourselves. But here we all are, to a certain respect, phantoms of each others' imaginations, and it is slender pickings here to establish identity. So I have played with the images a little. When I first came here I took it more seriously and tried to protect my identity. Now I know better. The site is so 'gamey' that I adapted and survived.

But yes, there is still this terrific sense of search going on. Presently I am searching for more ways to really annoy Jack - he's an escaped lunatic, you know. And although you say it is impossible to ignore me, I really wish some of them would. Dhirendra has recently made me a promise NOT to communicate and I can't wait to see what he says to me next. It is a little sad for him I suppose, to cut himself off from the only person here who truly understands K.

There seems to be a lot of outrage when it comes to mentioning my own life. Everyone has built his or her image but really I am a regular family guy, wife, kids, grandchildren, a pet alligator called Fluff. I know I like to play the jet-setter, but that's only because I am stinking rich and have endless time on my hands. Perhaps that's why I look down at the janitorial classes. I mean, they are valuable and all that: One needs to have someone open the gates when coming in rolling drunk in the Bentley at three in the morning. Thank god Lidlo has stopped cussing me out over my privilege. It was all earned legally and my lawyer has the forged papers to prove it.

I still find K to have been an exceptional person. He opened me up and challenged me to undo many mistaken conceptions I had. The teaching ACTS in a certaoin way to give little shocks. K's didactic style and authoritative stance speaks to one's ego as a father speaks to an errant child, maybe only with a look, but speaks nevertheless to that which is insincere in one. But all the gurus have played that trick. It only works so far and the rest is their own ego. The tail wagged the dog in Krishnamurti too, I'm afraid. I do not devalue him for that. I just stopped treating him as one would a saint.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 03 Aug 2012 #50
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
In real relationship it is essential to know the other one as much as knowing ourselves.

• The shoe that fits one person pinches another; there is no recipe for living that suits all cases. – Carl Jung

That is a real good sentiment Paul and thanks for opening up and coming out with all those personal details of your life . Well I feel its better to come here , share / discuss our problems , our lives and interact with each other as normal human beings , we very much are ….. rather than struggling / haggling with few difficult concepts which we feel discussing them we are showing off our so called knowledge of K …… and where as in all true sense , to discuss and acknowledge , accept that entity called I , everything related to it , which I feel is real doing K ….. Hmm its some news that you are so rich Paul ! May be you can do some donations to some of the K.F .I centers ….. They say they are always in need of healthy donations ….

Well for me K is the most practical teacher I had ever heard of and if I can say he is much , much more deeper than our conditioned minds can imagine / perceive / understand him to be …..
It just occurred , I hope my post 48 showed enough praise for your writing skills ! :))

This post was last updated by pavani rao Fri, 03 Aug 2012.

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Fri, 03 Aug 2012 #51
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Well for me K is the most practical teacher I had ever heard of and if I can say he is much , much more deeper than our conditioned minds can imagine / perceive / understand him to be …..

The K-nut believes in the incomprehensible superiority of their guru, but they deny they believe it because he told them to reject authority.

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Fri, 03 Aug 2012 #52
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
May be you can do some donations to some of the K.F .I centers ….. They say they are always in need of healthy donations ….

I won't be emptying my bulging coffers into that particular public spittoon, Pavani.

I worked at Brockwood for a year and saw them squander £2 million on so-called eco-pavilions. 'Eco?' Ego, more like. Right now they are one year behind on the build and scratching fo cash.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 03 Aug 2012 #53
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
I can say he is much , much more deeper than our conditioned minds can imagine / perceive / understand him to be …..

If you cannot imagine how deep he is due to your conditioning, then what part of you is making such a bold statement, Pavani?

But the fact is that all our minds have depths beyoond our imaginings. It is called the unconscious.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 03 Aug 2012 #54
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
The K-nut

During the times of the Vikings, England once had a Nordic king called King Knut who thought himself so powerful he could even make the sea go back. I think there is a message in it somewhere.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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