Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Is everybody totally conditioned?


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Tue, 20 May 2014 #1
Thumb_stringio Joe Loveys Canada 280 posts in this forum Offline

There's no doubt we're very heavily influenced by many things, which apparently makes the mind a result. If this is so, it explains a lot of human behavior.

Is there a part of us which is not touched by influence? I guess this was among the many questions K. asked.

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Tue, 20 May 2014 #2
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:
Is everybody totally conditioned?

Are you ?

Do you SEE your own conditioning ?

Because the seeing of the illusion is the ending of the illusion ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 20 May 2014 #3
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:
Is there a part of us which is not touched by influence?

Living, the present, is not touched by influence, but all that exists, all that has form, is influenced by the form that it has and its separation from all other that exists.

For example, we are limited to our five senses in interpreting the world around us, and for interpreting our universe. But the spectrum is far more extensive than our eyes will pick up, and the universe is composed mostly of dark matter and dark energy, of which we have not the slightest clue, other than that it exists.

Our limited interpretation of our world and universe influences our thinking, certainly. Does it also limit our understanding? Understanding is awareness and awareness is of the present.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Tue, 20 May 2014.

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Tue, 20 May 2014 #4
Thumb_2820 Aseem Kumar India 2033 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:
Is there a part of us which is not touched by influence?

Understanding/inquiring into which parts/functions of human brain are 'touched by influences' is the way to proceed here.

The mind can deceive itself and fabricate anything it wishes

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Tue, 20 May 2014 #5
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys Canada 59 posts in this forum Offline
There's no doubt we're very heavily influenced by many things, which apparently makes the mind a result. If this is so, it explains a lot of human behavior. (behaviour)

Is there a part of us which is not touched by influence? I guess this was among the many questions K. asked.

JC> We all are influenced by evolution before we begin. Brain chemistry will influence various drives and these will in turn help you survive. Dopamine for example ,as a neurotransmitter ,will send signals to other nerve cells, and one of its main functions is to get you off your but ,maybe to go catch a rabbit (the reward) so you survive. Nowadays however,the reward may be misconstrued and you may reward yourself with a drug overdose. It’s purpose is to get you moving,what you do afterword's, nature does not give a hoot,it’s jobs done. This is one of our major problems in todays societies ,understanding the brains function,meaning we have a long way to go and a lot of energy to spend in pursuit of our own meaning. There are many obvious things that need to be dealt with,politics,education and so on but to think that we know enough or that have the ‘final solution ‘ ,the answer etc.,etc. would be a terrible mistake,as many a war has already proven. So sure, we are influenced ,sometimes quite heavily as you suggested.One may be influenced in a good way,which is a fact,or in a bad way,which is also a fact. The main thing,perhaps,would be to ,as much as one is able to,negate the bad and pursue the good,or at lest the better,then maybe we will arrive somewhere nice . A pound or an ounce,everyone counts. GO GO GO.

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Tue, 20 May 2014 #6
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1228 posts in this forum Offline

Everything that is matter is conditioned. Everything! The present state determines the subsequent state.
That includes the material body and brain. It's all physics. Biology as matter is chemistry and physics. Matter is deterministic..cause and effect. Cause and effect determinism is conditioning.

If one is willing to look at this possibility that one is completely conditioned (negative thinking... Asking...What is the self?...not this, not that) one may discover directly that there is something beyond matter. One is this other which is not matter...which has no attributes. K has mentioned "the mind that is not in the brain".

Scientists have understood much about what matter is and about it's behavior. What they have not found is: mind, sentience, qualia, feeling, intelligence, nowness, meaning.

There is this other, that is not matter. This that has no attributes: no shape, no form, no color, no age no history, not male or female, not even person. One is that....and that is the same one... one not two....the same, the very same one in every sentient being.

The behavior of every being is perfect and understandable even the behavior of the tyrant... You are that one also. There you do that. That behavior is all physics....conditioning. What is out of place, what is disorder, is that the conditioned...matter... conditioning... does not allow that which is beyond conditioning to operate.

Seeing all of this, one must discover what is impeding freedom in ones self.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Wed, 21 May 2014.

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Tue, 20 May 2014 #7
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:
Is there a part of us which is not touched by influence? I guess this was among the many questions K. asked.

Through what is influence working in us? Max said we are limited by the scope of our sensory apparatus-that is, it has only limited perceiving ability. In the physical world we have to work within those limited parameters.That's inevitable. But psychologically? What would be influence there?

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #8
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

. . . psychologically? What would be influence there?

The psychological is put together by the brain through the process of thinking and thought. The psychological is a mental fabrication centered around the concept of an "I," a "self."

This psychological "I" is imaginary. It is an idea only, and has only the reality that belief gives to it. Unfortunately, when one believes in the actual reality of this "I," it controls his life.

max

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #9
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
Seeing all of this, one must discover what is impeding freedom in ones self.

Hello Peter,

Nice posting dear friend :-)

Certainly the main factor impeding freedom is our identification with forms, physical forms and psychological forms ... this erroneous identity being a thought, a belief ie. a conditioning ... while our deep nature, which is awareness, is formless ... as you reminded us what K said "the mind that is not in the brain" ...

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #10
Thumb_stringio Yogi Irushad Sri Lanka 518 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Aseem Kumar wrote:
Understanding/inquiring into which parts/functions of human brain are 'touched by influences' is the way to proceed here.

Yes, this is the practical way to proceed with. But I would say 'Mind' instead of brain. So,

Understanding/inquiring into which parts/functions of human Mind are 'touched by influences' is the way to proceed here.

"Knowing that 'one knows' " is Awareness(Sati), which stops the 'known' & penetrates to the "Unknown".

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #11
Thumb_stringio Yogi Irushad Sri Lanka 518 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Aseem Kumar wrote:
Understanding/inquiring into which parts/functions of human Mind are 'touched by influences' is the way to proceed here.

My observation is only 5% of the mind is conditioned and the rest of 95% is unconditioned. But we don't feel about the unconditioned mind. Since we mainly feel about conditioned mind, we perceive that we are totally conditioned.

"Knowing that 'one knows' " is Awareness(Sati), which stops the 'known' & penetrates to the "Unknown".

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #12
Thumb_stringio Yogi Irushad Sri Lanka 518 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yogi Irushad wrote:
Since we mainly feel about conditioned mind, we perceive that we are totally conditioned.

Yes, that is the 'thinking' mind.

"Knowing that 'one knows' " is Awareness(Sati), which stops the 'known' & penetrates to the "Unknown".

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #13
Thumb_stringio Joe Loveys Canada 280 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Are you ?

Do you SEE your own conditioning ?

I believe I am totally conditioned but I don't really see it.

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #14
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:
I believe I am totally conditioned but I don't really see it.

Then the best advice would be the ancient wisdom taught by Socrates (and many others):

know yourself ...

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #15
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:

I believe I am totally conditioned but I don't really see it.

JC>>>>Well, This is perhahahaps like looking into a mirror and seeing nothing.
It might be a good idea to reflect upon this immediately .
Some conditioning is just fine, air conditioning for example.
I conditioned my motor bike last week,now it is running quite well.
Conditioning oneself on a daily basis is a fine idea,good for the physical
well being which in turn aids one;s mental attitude. Keeping with the physical
for a moment,it seems like a good idea to have a healthy diet, as,paying attention to
what you eat ,is,healthy conditioning ,and,this off course,begs the question; with what should one
feed one;s mind . Hmmm,food for thought.
Now I think I will go and condition my toe nails,
No big deal,
Their just ruining my socks.

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #16
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
The psychological is put together by the brain through the process of thinking and thought. The psychological is a mental fabrication centered around the concept of an "I," a "self."

This psychological "I" is imaginary. It is an idea only, and has only the reality that belief gives to it. Unfortunately, when one believes in the actual reality of this "I," it controls his life.

Yes.

So psychological is put together by the thinking process. Then can we observe without thinking, thought? That will keep the conditioned in abeyance in seeing?

Is that not what it comes to when we have to fined the unconditioned?

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Wed, 21 May 2014 #17
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Aseem Kumar wrote:
Understanding/inquiring into which parts/functions of human brain are 'touched by influences' is the way to proceed here.

Is this not thought?

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Thu, 22 May 2014 #18
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote (post 16):
. . . can we observe without thinking, thought?

I see observation and thinking as two different things entirely. Observation is sensing. It is awareness and perception, whereas thinking is the consideration, evaluation, comparison and judgment of that which has been sensed or perceived.

max

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Thu, 22 May 2014 #19
Thumb_stringio Joe Loveys Canada 280 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
But psychologically? What would be influence there?

Isn't it where most conditioning happens? In our thinking and feeling? Even the dominant urge to be secure inwardly seems to be a conditioned need. As of course K. pointed out, and really otherwise I'm not sure I ever would have given it much thought, it is this drive to be secure that has led to the formation of nations and the psychological importance of national identity. (And probably the same drive is behind religious belief.) The attachment to labels too, perhaps.

That's just an example, and it seems to run so much deeper, perhaps thoroughly into all aspects of consciousness, and maybe the bulk of it lies hidden most of the time. This makes it a tricky question, that I might have phrased otherwise. Is all thought conditioned? Someone like K. would have said, "obviously," I imagine, but it isn't obvious to most people, maybe only to very few. Again and again he spoke of actually seeing it, feeling it very deeply, not just accepting a verbal statement. And this is the kind of awareness which eludes us because we're used to thinking all the time and living on words.

Another complex example is self-image. And the many images of others. The ideas and experiences and knowledge through which we view people and things. To me it all sounds extraordinarily complicated, to be aware of all that. How the self-image is formed through experience. How quickly the reactions happen like reflexes, sometimes only noticed after they occur.

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Thu, 22 May 2014 #20
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:
Isn't it where most conditioning happens? In our thinking and feeling?

The brain creates (constructs) the psychological and the psychological "I" -- the "self." The brain thinks; the brain is the "thinker."

I would say that it is the brain itself that becomes conditioned, not the brain's constructions nor the brain's thinking.

Probably easier pathways through the neuronal system of the brain are formed by exposure and repetition to certain stimuli, and this is conditioning. Awareness would seem to be able to affect conditioning.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Thu, 22 May 2014.

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #21
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
I see observation and thinking as two different things entirely. Observation is sensing. It is awareness and perception, whereas thinking is the consideration, evaluation, comparison and judgment of that which has been sensed or perceived.

Yes, I see it as two things too.

Yes,my understanding too is thinking is comparison, judgement & so on. So our conditioning operates through thinking only?

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #22
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:
That's just an example, and it seems to run so much deeper, perhaps thoroughly into all aspects of consciousness, and maybe the bulk of it lies hidden most of the time.

Yes, it seems to run very, very, deep.

Joe Loveys wrote:
Someone like K. would have said, "obviously," I imagine, but it isn't obvious to most people, maybe only to very few.

Yes,I think K would have said obviously there!

Joe Loveys wrote:
Another complex example is self-image. And the many images of others. The ideas and experiences and knowledge through which we view people and things. To me it all sounds extraordinarily complicated, to be aware of all that. How the self-image is formed through experience. How quickly the reactions happen like reflexes, sometimes only noticed after they occur.

Would you say it is the reaction we have to observe & understand? It is almost automatic, I find. Is it not the reaction which is our conditioning? When it is not a reaction, is it not communication of facts, the aspect of thinking K said was necessary?

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #23
Thumb_stringio Joe Loveys Canada 280 posts in this forum Offline

I suppose we can ask what conditioning is. How we are taught to think as we do. What was the purpose of the schooling we received. What is the significance of cultural values. Why are we attached to so many things. The national identity. The religious belief. The thirst for comfort.

It seems to me the entirety of mind is learned or gathered from others. Then it falls into repeated grooves. Then it is rarely aware of much else. It may have enormous capacity, but functions in small places, in such limitation.

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #24
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Joe Loveys wrote:
I suppose we can ask what conditioning is.

Haha, oh why would we want to do something so intelligent as that, Joe? ;)

Stuff happens

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #25
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Joe Loveys wrote:
the entirety of mind is learned or gathered from others.

It seems to me that the mind is used by "others" to the disadvantage of the individual (propaganda/mind control). If, as you suggest, the current human mind set is a learned/taught situation, the implication then is that it can be un-taught and "right/correct" mind-set can then be inserted, no?

Stuff happens

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #26
Thumb_stringio Joe Loveys Canada 280 posts in this forum Offline

I dunno Randall, I'm drunk. It was just a cool thing to say to make myself confused.

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #27
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote (post 22):
So our conditioning operates through thinking only?

I would say so. Conditioning is the setting of pattern. When there is no change in our thinking, our brain is conditioned by the thinking -- we repeat what we think.

Does awareness condition the brain? I don't see that it does. Awareness creates memory, but it is not memory itself. And it is memory that is the basis of thinking and thought.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 23 May 2014.

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #28
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Does awareness condition the brain? I don't see that it does. Awareness creates memory, but it is not memory itself. And it is memory that is the basis of thinking and thought.

Hello Max,

This seems contradictory to me.

You say awareness does not condition brain ... however awareness creates memory, and memory is the basis of thinking, which is itself conditioned by memory, thought being a reaction of memory ...

As seen here, awareness does NOT create memory ... awareness 'does' nothing, awareness only SEES ... what creates memory can only be thought ...

To come back to computer analogy: thought is the program, memory is the database ... and you need some program (thought) to access the database (memory) and update it ... and awareness just 'sees' all this ...

So how does awareness (intelligence) interfere in this process ?

The key factor used here is the emotional factor: when thought happens it generates an emotion (reaction in the body), this emotion is perceived by awareness which informs thought if it feels good or not, not as a 'judgement' but as an inner state of being ... which in turn gives a 'feedback' to thought, and thought updates memory consequently ...

So emotional intelligence (or listening to your 'heart') is key to understanding.

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry disclosed for us the "Secret of the Fox" in his book "The Little Prince":

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret: It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 23 May 2014.

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #29
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jean,

That seems correct-- awareness doesn't do anything. Awareness does not actually create anything.

But can thinking create memory? Thinking is always after the fact. One cannot think of anything that has not already happened or occurred. So memory has to already be in place before thinking can occur.

Awareness and memory are the best of friends. One is aware, one senses, and voila! we have memory.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 23 May 2014.

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Fri, 23 May 2014 #30
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Awareness and memory are the best of friends.

No Max, I don't see this ... awareness is of a totally different dimension than memory ... memory belongs to the realm of forms ... while awareness does not ... it is like comparing the sun with the clouds, saying that clouds are the best friends of the sun ...

Awareness can perfectly be without memory (which happens in deep sleep or deep meditation) ... but memory needs awareness to even exist ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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