Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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J K's teachings & personal experience


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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #1
Thumb_cow_boy_1 Krishna Kumar India 1 post in this forum Offline

I am a person whose life & personal outlook has been substantially changed by J K's teaching...I say this with trepidation, because J K had categorically said that none can teach anyone in this world...But... yet, what I say is true... I would like to hear from other friends, their personal experience, vis-a-vis, J K's teachings...Please....

A fellow traveller to those who seek 'The Truth"

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Tue, 08 Sep 2009 #2
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 131 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Krishna Kumar, There are two types of changes that can take place in man's mind. One is that of education. For example, by reading good books and moving in good company, one becomes sophisticated. The second type of change, that K called for is a fundamental change in the mind. For example getting rid of fear.

The first one is what most people get. They generally mistake, as though it is the final. You may specify what actually you feel about the change. Best wishes,

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Thu, 10 Sep 2009 #3
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

HI KRISHNA, ONE OF THE WAYS IN WHICH K'S MESSAGE HAS IMPACTED MY LIFE THE MOST, AND THERE ARE MANY, IS, HOW OUR MINDS WHEN UNOBSERVED , FALL WITH EASE INTO IMAGE BUILDING, DISTORTING PERCEPTION, THUS LEADING TO ILLUSION.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 19 Nov 2009 #4
Thumb_avatar Dave Whittey United Kingdom 5 posts in this forum Offline

I am a person whose life & personal outlook has been substantially changed by J K's teaching...I say this with trepidation, because J K had categorically said that none can teach anyone in this world...But... yet, what I say is true... I would like to hear from other friends, their personal experience, vis-a-vis, J K's teachings...Please....

Hi Krishna
It may be that you were thinking along the same lines before you encountered K's work. Realization as well as learning.
For me, I intellectually agree with what K says. I subconciously 'feel' the truth in his words. At difficult times in my life, going thru my thoughts and reactions as K advocates, has put my difficulties into perspective.
In good times, I look at my reactions to daily events with a view towards self improvement. There is a part of me that thinks that this is good thing.. and another part has a suspicion that such self absorbed striving is missing the main point.

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Thu, 19 Nov 2009 #5
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dave Whittey wrote:
I look at my reactions to daily events with a view towards self improvement. There is a part of me that thinks that this is good thing.. and another part has a suspicion that such self absorbed striving is missing the main point.
Hi Dave,It has been said that, self improvement is but a refinement of conditioning, still a fragment working on another fragment. It seems that what the mind is occupied with is not the issue, but the fact that it is occupied? Being occupied seems to prevent direct perception of what is? So one could say, the occupied mind is the conditioned mind, could one not?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 19 Nov 2009 #6
Thumb_avatar Dave Whittey United Kingdom 5 posts in this forum Offline

hi Rick
Thanks for reply. Not knowing the person one is speaking to and not seeing them in front of you makes misunderstanding inevitable without going into great detail I suppose. My point is that, when I observe myself, on occasions when I feel I am living something near what K may describe as seeing things for what they are, I observe that self improvement is part of the aim of what I'm doing. Hence.. and another part has a suspicion that such self absorbed striving is missing the main point.

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Fri, 20 Nov 2009 #7
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Dave,thank you for your clarification. It seems that the action of observation is enough, then thought pops up and evaluates, compares, to look without the desire for a result.Things are as they are. I find that when I'm confused I'm playing with images again. So I question myself, and in that questioning I am learning, because I don't know. So it seem that this all takes place Now, in which there is no striving, no becoming , no effort to change, just what is.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Fri, 20 Nov 2009 #8
Thumb_avatar Dave Whittey United Kingdom 5 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Rick
Observation of self in interactions does confirm for me my conditioned behaviour. As you say, the process of observation seems to be enough. I feel good while I do this. But all too easily I fall back into 'normal' thinking mode. I practice these periods of observation when I remember and feel in the mood to do so. I also turn to this coping strategy in times of trauma. I can se why K said that it was more likely for an unhappy person to achieve a selfless state than someone content with their life.

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Wed, 25 Nov 2009 #9
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dave Whittey wrote:
But all too easily I fall back into 'normal' thinking mode.

Hi Dave, I also fall back[asleep] with ease, kind of keeps you on your toe's though, in fact I am so deeply conditioned,it amazes me when I am attentive enough to see it. It seems to happen[the seeing of it] more than it did, but it comes and go's of it's own accord, so to speak. I find that while the basics of the teachings are beautiful in their simplicity, much more difficult to implement with any sort of sustained awareness, what do you say?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Tue, 01 Dec 2009 #10
Thumb_avatar Dave Whittey United Kingdom 5 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Rick
I agree. My hope in joining this forum was to share experiences and in communicating with like minded people, increase the frequency of noticing my responses and actions from my conditioned self. Perhaps it may be useful to note how the periods of awareness come to an end.

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Tue, 01 Dec 2009 #11
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dave Whittey wrote:
erhaps it may be useful to note how the periods of awareness come to an end.

Hi Dave,yes that makes sense,so can we say that the moment thought comes in,awareness is no more? What I'm asking is, is not the occupation of the mind with anything, the ending of awareness of what is? And the further question I ask myself is, is it not my minds preoccupation with it's self that habitually distorts my perception? It seems that to see that I am not aware is awareness,but as we already discussed, it is so so easy to fall back. So to my own limited perception,awareness stops when self,I, me,mine begins.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 03 Dec 2009 #12
Thumb_avatar Philip Pratt Australia 1 post in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti in some of his last talks indicated that that no one has yet 'transformed' and that very few people have really understood the teachings. What then is the point? If the talks and the 'pointing out' has achieved no real results in terms of the 'freedom' of the human being, from pain and suffering and the binds and strictures of our conditioning, what have they accomplished ? Why is it any different from the criticism K makes of Christianity. (I?m not a Christian)

?So all these religions become nothing but propaganda because they don?t solve the fundamental problems of human beings and thus fail the whole of humanity. Christians espouse love and compassion but there is no evidence after all this time that there is any more love and compassion in the world, probably less. Such hypocrisy to worship in a church on Sunday, to listen to the sermon and so on and yet to continue being the same violent, envious, fear full , person the next day and so the cycle goes on.? K
I have doubts about the capacity of those that are not Krishnamurti, such as me, of realising what he is asking us all to do. To dissolve or eliminate fear, envy, violence, hatred, desire, the pursuit of pleasure, thought and the big one the ?me?, is this really possible or is it all just academic. Show me someone who has attained all of the above apart from K himself. Or is this the wrong question to ask?
One can read and watch everything available by Krishnamurti and Echardt Tolle, agree with it all, the ?pointing out ? the acknowledgement for the need to change etc and absorb it all until you are blue in the face. You can see the sense of it all and realise that your life is miserable sham, an illusion governed by ego and conditioning. However if all this has not led to a change, if one then is still not ?free?, you are still struggling under the burden of thought and imposition of self, even though you can see that it must be eliminated for the sake of liberation, then it has not worked. The teachings have fallen short of the mark and have not achieved very much and maybe never will. As K said you can?t be partially enlightened.

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Thu, 03 Dec 2009 #13
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Philip Pratt wrote:
The teachings have fallen short of the mark and have not achieved very much and maybe never will. As K said you can?t be partially enlightened.

Hi Philip, Have the teachings fallen short of the mark,K has much to say about effort,seeking a result,and so forth. He said observe yourself,see what you find!He often said that the one who seeks the truth will not find it. You can not depend on any person place, or thing outside one's self,so it appears there is a very fundamental difference between the teachings,and the propaganda of religions,in that we must find out for our selves ,So if the point of the teachings were to simply point to the door,have they fallen short of anything at all. Are the teachings the real problem here?, or is it ourselves. Religions do not invite questioning anything,while K say's do question your own assumptions of everything,including the teachings.The teachings do not require a belief,a system,an authority,dogma,faith,ritual, or tradition. I am the problem, not the teachings.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 05 Dec 2009 #14
Thumb_avatar Dave Whittey United Kingdom 5 posts in this forum Offline

Philip Pratt wrote:
As K said you can?t be partially enlightened.

For K to say no one has yet transformed and that very few people have really understood the teachings may be pretty damning for the rest of us. But I wonder what his means of assessing a persons 'understanding' and 'transformation' were. What would be the benchmark which indicates an individuals 'understanding', a verbal account of the way one is or feels? An assessment of how one reacted to various situations, a form of real life exam? Would the transformed individual or one who understood the teachings have an aura about themselves, be an embodiment of serenity? How will we ourselves know if we understand the teachings correctly? It may be that it is not important to to seek to answer any of these questions. The measure of our degree of understanding or our proximity to achieving 'transformation' may be of little importance. People of any ability gain enjoyment and satisfaction from their chosen sport or hobby for example.

For me faith in the existence of a God seems to be essential in order to adhere to any religion. It seems that any religion, followed with belief, can provide a beneficial or moving experiences which reward and positively reinforce one's faith. One does not have to be a scholar or have much knowledge of the bible for such reinforcement to take place. Nor does one have to be particularly diligent in one's worship or adherence to the commandments of their particular religion to gain such experiences. It can still serve as "opium for the people". For me K's teachings don't seem to require blind faith. His words makes perfect sense. His words turn out to be explanations for many questions I have wondered about myself and human existence. He brings it altogether beautifully. When I remember to observe myself and see the conditioned nature of my responses and actions, it feels right. I feel good. This is a positive reinforcement for me to continue such observations and beliefs in K's writings. I may or may not have a very good understanding of his work. In all likelihood I'll never be 'transformed' according to K's general assessment. I don't mind it's working for me so far.

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Tue, 05 Jan 2010 #15
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 131 posts in this forum Offline

Philip Pratt wrote:
Krishnamurti in some of his last talks indicated that that no one has yet 'transformed' and that very few people have really understood the teachings. What then is the point?

Philip, I had more or less the same view, when I started reading K. Later, I began to see that a 'free' state of mind may not necessarily be further equipped to liberate or teach others, through words or intellectual means.

Despite substantial number of 'free' human beings, all of them seem to have failed in their 'communication' so far. However, K happens to be the most advanced, scientific and also simple among them all.

The teachings have fallen short of the mark and have not achieved very much and maybe never will.

The teachings haven't fallen short of the mark. K seems to have failed only in communicating it to others. When communication improves, mankind will be inevitably and immensely benefited.

Another notable point may be that most part of his teachings comprise of his own natural and free perceptions of and about the world. A small part or roughly less than one percent of his works seem to have been devoted to the actual principle, structure and operation of the human mind. Thereby most readers spend most of their precious time of their lives in enjoying the perceptions of K, rather than introspecting about how to bring a possible change in themselves.

Nevertheless, this is not to underestimate the contribution of K. Only Prudent readers can study and advance his teachings for the overall benefit of mankind.

As K said you can?t be partially enlightened.

Here too, I have a different perception. The beginning of the process (of change) is instantaneous. However, there is definitely some duration of physical time between beginning and ending. During that process, there is partial freedom or enlightenment, which of course isn't total or complete freedom.

Probably K might have said so to mean that partial enlightenment is not of much use as such persons can't save this world.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Tue, 05 Jan 2010 #16
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

hi rick and everyone..
as you mention : is the teaching the problem or is it us ?
So far in my experience I was, am ..the problem...
I have noticed that when something is seen deeply unexpectedly, without making a big fuss of it, then if by reading randomly a book by K about what had been seen deeply, i usually say to myself: well , it was there in the teaching, so clear, so precise, so well said, it shows at the time that the reading even careful doesn't lead far, and at the same time is a beginning of something, one has to start inquiry somehow,somewhere without being shy about it !!...it seems that maybe by reading we reach some kind of analytical understanding which is already something, then it might reach deeper levels.
My intellect is killing my life, trying to i mean, like a slow suicide.
The sorrow from it , plus the fact to be so fed up and upset with the craving for a secure life like a baby bird in its parents nest, plus k readings are vital elements to start the inquiry...like pushing oneself into some unbearable state of the mind..
Reaching a totally upsetting frame of mind, i mean this unbearable permanent quest for: happiness, for joy, for being the new k, or the man who knows, whatever ideal projection in some future, seing that when you get up in the morning the sorrow is still there, even stronger probably, then what is left? reading K as a mean of escaping one more time ?
or trying to look at what is possible for us, this discontentment which is always there, and growing up...so unbearable for someone who has not decided yet to bear with it saying: well ! that is life !
Reaching a total upsetting frame of mind maybe a necessary door to reach, then the suffering makes you try another escape-fear-quest in some future, the growing up discontentment which is painful tells you all of a sudden:" i stop that, whatever happens.."
then the discovery maybe for us, like seing in a one moment the functioning of the analytical brain/ego, projecting permanently the future like : plans, ideas, fears, quest and so on, projecting like a machine, in a never ending process, this analytical brain being then more a tool than anything else.
the mechanical part of projections in the future , which are binary conclusions of the analyzer like yes or no, is there all the time, and this little tiny program seems to be ,excuse me the expression, the pain in the ass !!!
then inquiry starts, in a way discontentment is a guide that something is wrong one more time, discontentment and psychological pain shows you something like : still wrong !!
the psychological suffering maybe a guide, like the physical suffering shows you something is wrong, which is already there when you feel it.
physically we do something about the pain if possible.
Can we "proceed " wisely in a similar manner with psychological sufferings/problems ?
at first escaping/fear arises, then the crisis increases, k teaching may help, but bottom line it seems that the path is so personal..
I have learnt many skills, like being a chef, cabinet maker , truck driver, and more..for it i had to go through a learning process, by accumulation of course, absolutely necessary to do a good work..
shall we have the same approach with k teachings ?
The teaching of k is such a great thing to have, and at the same time it has to be left on the side at some stage, well my feeling, it is a bit like the analytical brain which is necessary for the practical life, but is the problem too..
well reaching that point we need another " function" in ourselves??, maybe functions??, capable to deal with some aspects of life which are not in the known, capable to look at the unknown, what the analytical brain cannot do, always analyzing what it knows, fearing the unknown, which makes it look for total security, but it never happens, then the crisis increases more and more, then we live a life like we built and live in a house, a house with an alarm system and great walls around the property,... we base a life on memories and ideal future, where death is not there...what's about the present?
we built houses in the present, so obvious, psychologically are we in this present ? the present cannot be in memory, it means to be fully alive the ego/analytical brain shall not interfere.
will it come through a method ?
Don't misunderstand my point K teaching is ...of great importance , my view !
amicalement votre !!

lost in tragedy...

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Tue, 05 Jan 2010 #17
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 64 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Philip Pratt wrote:
The teachings have fallen short of the mark and have not achieved very much and maybe never will.

I fully agree here, Philip.

Philip Pratt wrote:
As K said you can?t be partially enlightened.

This is true only in a certain sense. One can have a revolutionary awakening experience and go on to experience a time of 'perfect' enlightenment and then fall back to sleep again. Quickly losing any meaningful or edifying rememberance or understanding of the experience. Often, or more likely, usually, a person will need several or even many awakening experiences in order to fully understand just what's happening to him and finally come to understand just what action/s he must take in order to maintain a state of full and continuous enlightenment.

And personally the action/s necessary to maintain full wakefulness or enlightenment include a lot of unending CHANGE, of both a minor and a major nature. CHANGE, I find, being a very vital part of the brain purification process that K rightly stressed was necessary in order for a total and complete transformation to ultimately take place in us.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 05 Jan 2010.

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Tue, 05 Jan 2010 #18
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 64 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
Despite a substantial number of 'free' human beings, all of them seem to have failed in their 'communication' so far.

Agreed. And this failure of 'communication' results from a lacking of perfect self-understanding.

Prasanna P wrote:
However, K happens to be the most advanced, scientific and also simple among them all.

This may very well be, Prasanna. However, what is necessary for the genuine awakening and transformation of others is a living teacher. One that has a living message of radical personal change and development that will effectively reach deep into men's hearts, which is where real change must begin. Which words alone can never accomplish. And especially those of dead men. Whether they've been dead for 20 centuries or 2 and a half decades.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 05 Jan 2010.

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Tue, 05 Jan 2010 #19
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 64 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
The second type of change, that K called for is a fundamental change in the mind. For example getting rid of fear.

Regarding "getting rid of fear", K made a simple, but powerful, observation, which is fundamentally Biblical in nature.

"In the flame of LOVE, all fear is consumed." (J. K. - The Challenge of Change, DVD pt. 2)

Or: "There is no fear in love; but PERFECT LOVE casts out fear", for those who may happen to practice the principles of another teaching.

So here again, as K also so often stressed in many different ways, LOVE remains the one and only answer not only to conquer fear, but for conquering all of the many ills of mankind.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 05 Jan 2010.

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Wed, 06 Jan 2010 #20
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 131 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
Agreed. And this failure of 'communication' results from a lacking of perfect self-understanding.

No, Bob. Even the one with complete 'self understanding' may be unable to communicate. It is like Science and its application in Technology. Or a Pure Science Discovery and its application. We can't discard Rajagopal's contribution in this regard, in view of his other misdeeds.

This may very well be, Prasanna. However, what is necessary for the genuine awakening and transformation of others is a living teacher.

It is an excuse your 'self' is giving from a long time to delay your awakening. The self wants to have the cake and eat it too!

Which words alone can never accomplish.

Mankind has to use words alone. There is no other alternative. Only arena of human interaction is 'intellectual' and words are the only tools in therein. Hence, there is no other go, till a 'pill' is found out to 'liberate' mankind.

And especially those of dead men. Whether they've been dead for 20 centuries or 2 and a half decades.

Bob, Men may die and books may perish. Truth is the spirit of nature and can't die or become stale. Only thing we can do is to advance it for easier access and effective utilization. It depends on the receiver.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Wed, 06 Jan 2010 #21
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
Bob, Men may die and books may perish. Truth is the spirit of nature and can't die or become stale. Only thing we can do is to advance it for easier access and effective utilization. It depends on the receiver.

Thanks Prasanna, well said!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Wed, 06 Jan 2010 #22
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 64 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

daniel moru wrote:
Reaching a totally upsetting frame of mind.

Yes Daniel, this has been my experience. Having to reach a point of complete defeat in my life. A bottom one might say. Coming to a point in mid-life (36) whereby I was in most respects living the so-called American Dream, wanting for nothing in the material realm of things, but just beneath it all feeling that life was not at all worth living anymore. Whereupon some mini-awakening experiences began to take place in me and in time I came to experience some of a far greater magnitude like K's turning point experience in 1922. One of them putting me in a State Mental Hospital for a month. After which I would often revert back again to the old state of misery, despair, and daily feelings of insanity, sometimes near total. And this oscillation or emotional roller coaster ride continued to take place for about 4 years until I finally left home, job of 15 years, wife, and family of 22 years and wound up in a Rescue Mission where at the time I felt with all my being that my life was beginning all over again at the age of 41. I was very often vibrantly alive with tremendous feelings of overflowing zest and joy just as K was upon his first revelatory awakening experience. And similarly wanting everyone around me to also fully grasp and experience what I was experiencing.

And since that time there's been much change in my life including living like a vagabond for about 16 years along with having many, many experiences of pure oneness with life and the people all about me. And in the following 27 years, along with much continued change and new experiences such as travel, two more marriages, another child, learning to live simple, more reversion back to old ways and feelings, more suffering, more heartaches, more soul-searching, more awakening experiences, more joy, etc. , I've recently come to the point whereby I've finally attained to a great deal of wisdom, self-understanding (including a thorough understanding of my past which I feel is very important), and above all serenity and freedom from fear. Along with experiencing on a daily basis that very same immense intelligence and energy flowing through me that K said was using his body for some 70 years.

daniel moru wrote:
Capable to look at the unknown.

My experience is that one must pull out all the mind made security-seeking stops and take a blind or mindless leap into the unknown. Or one might say to fully allow life to take us where it wants to. And not where we think we should or should not go. One thinks here of the saying "go with the flow." Yet very, very few of us ever really do so with complete, or, perhaps better yet, wreckless abandon. Which is what must be done if we're ever come to discover extraordinary things including new being. But unfortunately most peoples' "going with the flow" is to merely follow the crowd, which is really going nowhere but down the path of destruction.

"A radical change can take place only outside the field of thought, not within it, and the mind can leave the field only when it sees the confines, the boundaries of the field, and realizes that any change within the field is no change at all." ( J. K. - 'The Book of Life' - Oct. 27)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Wed, 06 Jan 2010 #23
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 64 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
No, Bob. Even the one with complete 'self understanding' may be unable to communicate. It is like Science and its application in Technology. Or a Pure Science Discovery and its application.

Thanks for your reply, Prasanna. I have no further arguments here. Though I would be interested in a reply to post #19 from you.

Bob M.

P. S. That 'pill' you speak of that will be necessary to 'liberate' mankind is going to be the simple, down-to-earth, and freely shared experiences and wisdom of a man who has graduated with honors from Life's School of Hard Knocks. Which I'm afraid is going to leave both the scientific and the religious communities out in the cold.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Wed, 06 Jan 2010.

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Wed, 06 Jan 2010 #24
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Robert Michael wrote:
My experience is that one must pull out all the mind made security-seeking stops and take a blind or mindless leap into the unknown. Or one might say to fully allow life to take us where it wants to. And not where we think we should or should not go.

Hello Robert
I have found your post interesting..
my experience would go along with what you mention in the quote i took from you...the subtle ability to watch the never ending projection of what I call "analytical brain",( memories+ analyzes and conclusion like i want or i don't).
well like you i know it from experiences, beyond any will action of course, and as you say "fully allow life to take us where it wants to...
this is very clear for me because experimented by " pure luck "..
27 years you say, for some reasons this is my number....

Robert Michael wrote:
"A radical change can take place only outside the field of thought, not within it, and the mind can leave the field only when it sees the confines, the boundaries of the field, and realizes that any change within the field is no change at all." ( J. K. - 'The Book of Life' - Oct. 27)

Bob M.

well quoting k as this one, is my reality too and quite recent for the seing . the inside field of thought , more a machine than anything else , a machine in order to survive, this inside field of thought cannot be change radically you say, merely controlled eventually ,always in the field of effort, will , and i am a lazy one !! hi hi !
something has to happen somehow, like a deep vision of thought...
just for the sake of sharing what happened recently was the deep vision of this "machine " and this never ending projection into some future..
that was my personal deep seing, not mine actually but it was there, and a key understanding...
I had known in the past , 35 years ago , a state of mind with this bliss going around, unexpected , that others could feel, a bliss which would make the analytical brain silent, beyond words, a state of mind where it was not question of asking for a meaning , of searching something, a stat of mind where all psychological pain was not there..but amazingly , even if I experienced the bliss, nothing changed at the time, and a bit like you i went through a chaotic life, more kids too, and so on, living more simply for no reasons ,just because it was not important at the time..
the sorrow and the fact that i went too far in it, produced too much suffering, unbearable suffering, then one morning too upset and fed up, a little tiny thing happened like :that's enough of escaping , I look now..by chance it produced this seing of the ego/machine so deeply that all of a sudden I was aware of this ego/though ( ah words!).
the awareness of it is there now, it is an interesting time, very interesting time, our personal machine is there, giving opinions on everything, always in the field of deceiving yourself, always in fear of something , and so on...nothing to do about it but being aware...
thanks for the sharing without being shy , i feel the same way..
Celtics regards from Ireland...

lost in tragedy...

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Wed, 06 Jan 2010 #25
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 64 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

daniel moru wrote:
I have learnt many skills, like being a chef, cabinet maker , truck driver, and more..for it i had to go through a learning process, by accumulation of course, absolutely necessary to do a good work.

Overall I get good vibes from your post in regards to your potential for eventual victory over the conditioned self, Daniel. And especially seeing that you're a hands-on, multi-skilled and talented eager beaver type of individual which I am also (and perhaps even a perfectionist too which I feel is a real plus). Yes, a jack-of-all-trades I can pretty rightly call myself, and I don't mind adding a master of some. People have told me so. Like K, who himself had a keen interest in mechanical things from his earliest days, that inherent flame of curiosity and passion to endlessly investigate, question, know, understand, and do was never snuffed out of me by my conditioning, as is the case with so many people. Though there came a time when all my outward creative efforts and endeavors and worldly success left me high and dry and inwardly empty. Which eventually lead me to that terrible (yet blessed in retrospect) hour of great self-contempt from which a shift of consciousness took place and gave me a whole brand new outlook and lease on life. Whereby in order to maintain comfortability I had to begin to focus my time and energy on change, self-re-creation, and character building which began to effectively and lastingly fill that deep and restless inner void. And then I embarked on a new course in life whereby my focus in life began to be less and less self-centered and self-serving and more and more aligned with trying in my own then rather limited way to reach out to others who were likewise tired of their petty lives of quiet desperation. I can plainly recall some 30+ years ago upon my initial awakening and having been a troubleshooting electrician in a large (and in retrospect very insane and dehumanizing) steel mill telling a co-worker that I was sick and tired of fixing the machines that were destroying my fellow human beings. In about 2 months I was out of there having been halfway to a lucrative 30 year and out retirement pension.

It was around that time that I happened upon of a copy of 'Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening' by Mary Lutyens which was very beneficial in helping me understand just what was taking place in my life. Especially in light of the fact that nobody around me seemed to have any understanding whatsoever of what was taking place in me. Quite frankly many of those close to me thought I was losing my mind which I too often feared was happening. Which looking back from here I actually was. The old wrongly functioning mind was dying and a new one was emerging. Which can be and was a rather precarious time, since bizarre things can and did take place. I too read and studied many other writers, but that particular K book was perhaps the best help of them all, at least at that time period. Even in those rather crazy days I could see without any doubt whatsoever in the early photo of him on the cover of the book that K had been deeply immersed in a state of being which very, very few people ever attain to. I saw that same soul-purity and total selflessness in K's countenance that Leaderbeater saw in him earlier when he discovered him on the beach at Adyar. One more thing here. Over the past 32 years and even though I had to fully support myself I began to live simply which afforded me many times and periods of solitude, which we know K had much of and said was necessary for genuine and full spiritual development. And spending much time out in nature and away from all of fallen man's cement, steel, plastic, and macadam zoo was very vital and refreshing for me. And I feel strongly, and from my own often painful experiences, that a person, even upon having a genuine turning point experience in life, will not successfully overcome his conditioning and the world too if he remains a normal and active participant in society. Which is why I feel so many people who have awakening experiences and then truly embark on the spiritual path fail to stay the course, having fallen off of it myself many times over the years. Along with learning too that if one doesn't stay strong, vigilant, and focused in his journey, other people, including those close to us, will try to pull us off the straight and narrow, but joyful, path. And sometimes they may even succeed.

Along with Erich Fromm and some others, I found out the hard way that Love (or the vital redevelopment thereof) is not at all compatable with Capitalism. And that one will find little real joy, freedom, and happiness in his life if he's unconsciously and indiscriminately serving both Evolution and mammon.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 07 Jan 2010.

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Wed, 06 Jan 2010 #26
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

hello again,
there is something " special " in your post ...
well, for the time being my wife is working, and will go on for a while, I deal so with kids and have my time for me, soon we'll move up to the north of Ireland in county Donegal, to live in the country, near the sea side, and my wife agreed to keep on working one more year.more less..
She things strongly i shall finish the book i am writing, she feels something about the situation, well she is not normal..lol !!
we bought a house for nothing when in france, rebuilt it entirely and made some money without looking for it when renovating, the money is there to give me time, which now i will take anyway...i will see what to do next..amazingly i never worked so little in my life and some money is there without having been a goal at all.
Of course the all capitalism business is weird, so weird when looking at it, if it was not so deadly it would appeared as a bad joke, but it is a deadly game, personal and collective one..
i will open a coffee shop in donegal, i am a chef so...it will be special, i just need a bit of money to survive now, i have been doing that two years already 15 years ago, and i am still in touch with old customers, we were good friends, if it doesn't make enough money well, we'll see, no problemo..
the focus, as you mention remains, it a no choice situation anyway, as i have been living excessively, i can't go back to the old way, the suffering is there right away, it sounds weird, in fact this is luck to me..
food time for family..
I enjoy the sharing...

lost in tragedy...

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Thu, 07 Jan 2010 #27
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 131 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
Thanks for your reply, Prasanna. I have no further arguments here. Though I would be interested in a reply to post #19 from you.

Bob, I didn't feel there is something I disagree there. Besides, Analyzing various philosophical assertions of K or even comparing them with others may not be of great help, if one's objective is absolute freedom. However, observing one's own mind or looking inwards may increase one's observing ability or perception, which ultimately amounts to freedom from conditioning.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

This post was last updated by Prasanna P Thu, 07 Jan 2010.

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Thu, 07 Jan 2010 #28
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 64 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

daniel moru wrote:
I had known in the past , 35 years ago , a state of mind with this bliss going around, unexpected , that others could feel, a bliss which would make the analytical brain silent, beyond words, a state of mind where it was not question of asking for a meaning.

Yes, I've had these sorts of experiences take place periodically in my life from my earliest memories, Daniel. Yet at that time I never really had a deep understanding of them along with the realization that while others could be drawn into them for a time, left to their own devices they were incapable of experiencing those pure, selfless, timeless, and blissful experiences. I also felt different than everyone around me from my earliest days. Often to the point were I felt there was something wrong with me and that the rest of the world was 'normal'. Though today I know without any doubt that the contrary is in fact the case. The realization that most of the people all around me were mediocre, shallow, and lost human beings along with them being either bullish or sheepish contrary to them being warm, caring, and loving caused me to be quite shy and pretty much a loner my whole life, which remains true to this day. Though today I clearly understand just what is going on, both inwardly and outwardly. Though my list of real friends remains extremely short. Perhaps shorter than ever in my life. Actually I think presently only my wife's name is on it.

In my teens I discovered that cigarettes and booze would help make my association with the lost and neurotic crowd and the dog-eat-dog rat race far more tolerable and pleasant for me. Which they did for many years. Depending on the circumstances, booze and cigarettes could rocket me into a blissful spiritual state quite well, and without ever creating any major problems in my life. Save for some hangovers which weren't all that much of a price to pay for a good and happy and often productive load on. But eventually the bottle left me down and the funzies began to fade out of my life. Drunk or sober it became no longer worth living as it was being lived. I wound up in an alcohol rehab where I successfully gave up the drink. Whereby those pure consciousness or pure oneness experiences began to happen again without the aid of the booze, just like they did in my childhood and teen years. Then the trick was to learn how to comfortably stay on the roll sober. Which in retrospect began to take place as my societally conditioned self-will began to wither away. Which in time I was able to see and understand what was happening and better help the process along. I hung out in the fellowship of AA more or less on a social basis which in retrospect was good for me and helpful in what I see now as having to become a child again in every sense of the word and begin to grow up all over again while learning to see and begin eradicating the defective ways of my conditioning. Which was the beginning of the long hard process of recapturing and recultivating the sound, innocent, and loving mind and heart and keen inner awareness that I can clearly see now were always there. Which continues on today, though the times of great, though necessary, suffering are over, though the fine polishing will continue on until the day they plant me and I finally acheive perfect freedom and rest.

Rom Landau: "How did you come to that state of unity with everything?"

J. Krishnamurti: "People have asked me about that before, and I always feel that they expect to hear the dramatic account of some sudden miracle through which I suddenly became one with the universe. Of course nothing of the sort happened. My inner awareness was always there; though it took me TIME to feel it more and more clearly; and equally it took TIME to find words that would at all describe it. It was not a sudden flash, but a slow yet constant clarification of something that was always there. It did not grow, as people often think. Nothing can grow in us that is of spiritual importance. It has to be there in all its fullness, and then the only thing that happens is that we become more and more aware of it. It is our intellectul reaction and nothing else that needs TIME to become more articulate, more definite."

('God is My Adventure' - Rom Landau)

Note that K clearly states here that his inner awareness was always there and that it took him TIME to feel it more clearly, find words to describe it, and develop his intellectual reaction to it. And that his transformation did not make him instantly at one with the universe. Which is contrary to what many of those who claim to understand him believe. But rather that inner awareness (which is an attribute of a highly sensitive organism), time, and effort are all necessary for the process of enlightenment.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Thu, 07 Jan 2010 #29
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 64 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
Bob, I didn't feel there is something I disagree there. Besides, Analyzing various philosophical assertions of K or even comparing them with others may not be of great help, if one's objective is absolute freedom.

I was not analyzing anything or making any philosophical assertions at all, Prasanna. I was simply pointing out, along with K and fundamental Christian principals, the simple fact that without Love one will never be "rid of fear", nor will he find "absolute freedom" either. Nor will there ever be any peace and harmony among men. All of which K must have said a thousand times in many various ways throughout his many years.

Prasanna P wrote:
However, observing one's own mind or looking inwards may increase one's observing ability or perception, which ultimately amounts to freedom from conditioning.

Without Love all the "observing" and "looking inwards" in the world will be a thing of vanity.

"Only a mind and a heart that are full of Love can see the whole movement of life." (J. K. - 'The Flight of the Eagle')

And without Love there'll always be fragmentation, distortion, confusion, misery, violence, and so on.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 07 Jan 2010.

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Thu, 07 Jan 2010 #30
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Robert Michael wrote:
I hung out in the fellowship of AA more or less

Hello Robert, as my first language is not english , I don't understand the sentence above, could you please explain it to me ?

Robert Michael wrote:
Note that K clearly states here that his inner awareness was always there and that it took him TIME to feel it more clearly, find words to describe it, and develop his intellectual reaction to it. And that his transformation did not make him instantly at one with the universe.

yes Robert, I go along with it so far, they maybe not such a thing as " enlightenment " and then everything is there for good with nothing to do..
to be personal ,which i have to be there , otherwise it doesn't make sense to talk about it, one of the bliss i mentioned was created by what is known as kundalini, the word is of no importance.
I went through "something", like energy from the bottom of the spine , up into the head, beyond words, so weird and no special feeling as we know them, no like, no dislike, fully alive, even the seing was different, no sorrow, beautiful and so on not having the sensation to live something special at all, as if it was ...normal.

During this process "someone " communicated with me, brain to brain, in a language i didn't know but could understand,...see Robert , you say it was there all the time! this too was there all the time .
amazingly i knew how to use the energy back to the bottom of the spine and up again, this would allow me to communicate with this " person "..nothing wonderful was said, just a kind of : "how are you keeping, in a very friendly manner"....i mentioned that experience to go along with the quote..
i explain: i could say that, that was an enlighted moment for me, i know it for myself, even if the memory of it would be only :it happened! it cannot be communicate, but like you i did not understand what happened at the time, what was involved in that experience, and it took me nearly 35 years to see deeply that my analytical brain was only doing its job for once, with absolutely no interference at all, and something which is there , always there as you mention, touch me, by luck...the words seem to say ,there is the analytical brain/ego/thought, and some other parts of the brain which are there too.this not so define for me , so far i have the impression, deep impression , that all the brain is fully functioning including the thought process, which for the time stays in his field of competence..
the understanding of the activity of the ego/thought/analytical brain, in my case is necessary , it seems to be a discovery by pure attention, it is always unexpected to understand deeply , like in a half a second "message".
The relief from psychological pain and sorrow enters then in the life,it enters by understanding totally when it happens, all the tricks of thought, tricks like: ideal life, fear of death, desires, how great i am,and so on ad libitum, as we all know it, strangely now i used this thought much more in practical fields of life, well this is the job of this ego/thought/analytical brain, isn't it ? but when i make a piece of furniture i can be delighted with it of course, there is pleasure in doing something right i find, if well made..and at the same time there is the knowledge that it is only a piece of nice furniture,end of the story, not a big deal at the same time!!

if no blessing experience happens to me again, the relief is a blessing in itself, then the wind, the trees ,the nature, the relationship with others, the insanity of a normal life and much more is understood with some clarity, the constant lies of the so called social life seems so.....boring then, it is lies to protect oneself ,to prevent the suffering, and so far we have to face it , it seems to be so...
friendly...

lost in tragedy...

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