Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Is 'suicide' a way out of suffering ?


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Sun, 22 Jun 2014 #1
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

I would like to introduce here a topic which can be of practical help for some desperate persons who would consider 'suicide' as a way out of their suffering.

When you consider suicide as a solution to your problems, then you might consider this: physical suicide requires some physical means, which are not so easy to put in practice and moreover which are very dirty ... so you might come to this idea: instead of suiciding physically you could as well decide to suicide psychologically, which means that you consider yourself as dead, but you are still physically alive ... then whatever happens to you, you don't mind as you are dead ...

Didn't K disclose for us his famous 'secret' : "I don't mind what happens" ...

It is an instantaneous collapse of ego, the death of the psychological 'me'.

This is why people who consider the idea of suicide are in fact nearer to truth than anyone ... they just have to transform the death of the body into the death of ego ... what has to die is the psychological identity.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 23 Jun 2014 #2
Thumb_stringio Joe Loveys Canada 280 posts in this forum Offline

But we do mind what happens, so many people are unhappy for whatever reason. Most of us are totally concerned with ourselves most of the time. Imagine telling someone who is very unhappy with his life that all he has to do is die psychologically. He'd just think you were nuts.

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Mon, 23 Jun 2014 #3
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:
But we do mind what happens, so many people are unhappy for whatever reason. Most of us are totally concerned with ourselves most of the time. Imagine telling someone who is very unhappy with his life that all he has to do is die psychologically. He'd just think you were nuts.

Certainly not. If the suffering of this person leads him/her to the idea of suicide ... when you consider suicide you are ready to let go of everything, physical and psychological ... and when you look for practical means for physical suicide, you don't find suitable means so easily (and you can in most cases try to suicide and fail in your attempts) ... in this case considering psychological suicide is a solution, because psychological suicide (or 'egocide') needs no practical means at all, you can do this instantaneously, right now ... you need nothing to do that, just let go of your sense of self, ego ...

When you are really ready to get rid of life then "you don't mind what happens" ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 24 Jun 2014 #4
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
you don't mind what happens" ...

Good advice, keep the Love flowing.

Stuff happens

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #5
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Joe Loveys wrote:
He'd just think you were nuts.

He'd just think you were nuts.

And perhaps he had hit the nail on the head,although bent a little.

One who thinks that a life that may be drifting through a psychological,spiritual darkness,with senses numbed and soul that may be battered to meaninglessness,will suddenly change,as if like a mechanical switch on a wall gives forth light, may find it helpful to check the depth of his own soul. A broken yardstick should do .
What a soul in such a state of being needs is a touch of love,warmth,hope,tenderness, a shoulder a hand,two hands, a place to cry and maybe try again.
One could assume that the furthest thing desired would be a philosophical bromide.

Keep in mind that it is the present state of soul at hand here.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #6
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

john Campbell wrote:
Keep in mind that it is the present state of soul at hand here.

So you believe that there is a soul? How quaint! Do you also believe in the tooth fairy? Santa Claus? Easter Bunny? Just wondering.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #7
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
This is why people who consider the idea of suicide are in fact nearer to truth than anyone ... they just have to transform the death of the body into the death of ego ... what has to die is the psychological identity.

this is an interesting idea and i tend to agree with you in principle: what brings these people nearer to the truth is, i think, the idea that living is heavily overrated in our modern society and act upon that idea.

this said, i have a feeling that people with suicidal tendencies (barring chemical inbalances and such, of which i know absolutely nothing, but someone more knowledgeable may comment on this) are the most ego-centric of all and when your own ego takes up all the space around you, of course, life goes from simply hard to downright unsustainable.
i guess what i mean is that these may actually be the very people for whom the idea of selflessness may be the hardest of all to understand.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #8
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
keep the Love flowing.

is there anything wrong with that? just wondering, because you make it sound like there's something wrong with love flowing freely from one. actually i would expect it to be our natural state no?

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #9
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

b teulada wrote:
this said, i have a feeling that people with suicidal tendencies (barring chemical inbalances and such, of which i know absolutely nothing, but someone more knowledgeable may comment on this)

Hello Teulada,

Personally I don't think that depression is the result of chemical imbalance, but rather the other way round, because we become depressive (and the root cause is ego), we create chemical imbalances in the brain and the body ... but of course this comprehension is not in agreement with the financial interests of pharmaceutical corporations for which anti-depressant drugs are a very juicy business ... but all those drugs won't cure you ... they just stupefy you ...

are the most ego-centric of all and when your own ego takes up all the space around you, of course, life goes from simply hard to downright unsustainable.

i guess what i mean is that these may actually be the very people for whom the idea of selflessness may be the hardest of all to understand.

Yes and this is the wonder of it, ego makes us so much suffer that at some point we have to drop it ... at this moment we are ready for a real and radical change in our life ... until then 'business as usual' will go on and on and on ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #10
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Personally I don't think that depression is the result of chemical imbalance, but rather the other way round, because we become depressive (and the root cause is ego), we create chemical imbalances in the brain and the body ... but of course this comprehension is not in agreement with the financial interests of pharmaceutical corporations for which anti-depressant drugs are a very juicy business ... but all those drugs won't cure you ... they just stupefy you ...

well as i say, i am not knowledgeable enough to say one way or the other.
what i do know about depression is that i beat it alone but it took me many, many years or extremely hard work. first time i realised there was a natural way out of it was when i was 19 and found out that running on a daily basis was a powerful antidote.
i would imagine that people take drugs for the same reason that we have to take drugs to fight any other illness these days: because we have to be up on our feet and "productive" and cannot affort to just take our time and stay a week in bed with a flu or something; so, by the same token people cannot afford to fight depression on their own because it really takes much time and, particularly, soooo much hard work.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #11
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

b teulada wrote:
i would imagine that people take drugs for the same reason that we have to take drugs to fight any other illness these days: because we have to be up on our feet and "productive" and cannot affort to just take our time and stay a week in bed with a flu or something; so, by the same token people cannot afford to fight depression on their own because it really takes much time and, particularly, soooo much hard work.

Yes, and this might seem paradoxical that fighting depression is so hard work while at the same time it is so easy ... just dropping ego ... which iow means drop the false ideas (thoughts) and identities you have about yourself ... which means in fact nothing to 'do' at all ... just stop feeding illusions ...

In this case, the action is the seeing.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #12
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

In this case, the action is the seeing.

i feel you are somewhat playing around with words here.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #13
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

b teulada wrote:
you make it sound like there's something wrong with love flowing freely from one

Is it "wrong" to believe in the tooth fairy?

Stuff happens

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #14
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
Is it "wrong" to believe in the tooth fairy?

i don't see the connection between believing in the tooth fairy and believing in love

This post was last updated by b. teulada (account deleted) Thu, 26 Jun 2014.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #15
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes, and this might seem paradoxical that fighting depression is so hard work while at the same time it is so easy ... just dropping ego ... which iow means drop the false ideas (thoughts) and identities you have about yourself ... which means in fact nothing to 'do' at all ... just stop feeding illusions ...

Hi Jean,

I'm reminded of the old '2000 Year Old Man' comedy sketches where the interviewer asks the 2000 year old man:

"So did you have people back in your day with mental problems...?

"Oh sure we had lots of them..."

"But you had no therapists back then...what did you do?"

"Oh well that was simple, we just told them: " Hey, stop being so crazy!!"... they snapped right out of it."

This may be all wrong of course

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

b teulada wrote:
this said, i have a feeling that people with suicidal tendencies (barring chemical inbalances and such, of which i know absolutely nothing, but someone more knowledgeable may comment on this) are the most ego-centric of all and when your own ego takes up all the space around you, of course, life goes from simply hard to downright unsustainable.

Jack Pine wrote: B, I think your above statement is really insightful. Recently I came to my own similar conclusion about ego in a little different context.

There are two people I have attempted to discuss K with who had a particularly angry reaction. One is my brother and the other is my oldest friend. They both are recovering alcoholics, both went to AA. Both of these people have particularly strong egos and "addictive personalities" to use a popular term. One, my friend, got hooked on religion when he attended AA and my brother sort of started his own religion where he thinks if he thinks it and believes it it must be the truth.

Anyway my point is, and this is the part I think that ties in with what you wrote, do you think that ego-centric people, because they tend to depression, also tend to be more likely to become addicted to something? To need to escape more from the realities of life? I think these two people became threatened and angered by what K pointed out because it threatened their need to find something to hold onto and threatened what they were already holding on to. We all do that, hold onto something, but with some people it seems much more important to do so.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 26 Jun 2014.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

b teulada wrote:
tooth fairy

Oh B why did you change it? I thought it was really cute when you spelled it "toof" the first time. Saying "tooth" without your two front teeth. I'm getting too "familiar" too fresh aren't I?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 26 Jun 2014.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #18
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Oh B why did you change it? I thought it was really cute when you spelled it "toof" the first time. Saying "tooth" without your two front teeth. I'm getting too "familiar" too fresh aren't I?

ah ah ah ! yes, just realised that!!!

alt text

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #19
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:

How quaint! Do you also believe in the tooth fairy? Just wondering

Oh My,My.
Considering a persons mental state of being while s/he is suffering a form of depression,perhaps elevating this person to a state of existence that seems above the sum total of a bunch of particles, perhaps ‘dear soul’ could do it,maybe something else, would prove more appropriate. One does not necessarily have to believe in the existence of such, on the other hand its nobody’s business if one does contemplate the possibility of such a thing. After all we are dealing here with helping correct a person’s sad state and so putting aside for awhile one’s ‘selfish’ little convictions may hasten the task. Soul,hmm.,a broad subject.Some classic philosophers believe the soul to be located in some part of one’s body,eg. ,head,chest,stomach (logos,thymos,eros),in this case many may find their in their ass.

There are many concepts of souls or whatever one wishes to name such, and despite neuroscience advances in understanding brain function most of it all remains mysterious.

How ‘quaint’ for someone to believe that they have found the truth,and can now divorce themselves from life.

At least I received a few coin from the Tooth Fairy.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #20
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

b teulada wrote:
i don't see the connection between believing in the tooth fairy and believing in love

Belief.

Stuff happens

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #21
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Belief.

Yes. Belief and ignorance are the best of friends. Hard to tell them apart.

max

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #22
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

john Campbell wrote:
One does not necessarily have to believe in the existence of such, on the other hand its nobody’s business if one does contemplate the possibility of such a thing.

Well that's a fact it's no one's business what a person believes or doesn't believe in. But it becomes the business of this forum and also anyone who wants to comment on it when it is posted on the forum. Then anyone is free to discuss it. Also it is reasonable to say that if you come here to understand K then it is probably best to question your previous conditioning instead of propagating it on the forum.

john Campbell wrote:
After all we are dealing here with helping correct a person’s sad state and so putting aside for awhile one’s ‘selfish’ little convictions may hasten the task.

But you didn't put aside your conviction, apparently, that there is something that actually exists called a soul. Also, by redirecting someone away from understanding his depression or sadness to a hypothetical concept like the soul you may not be helping that person. Isn't it better to help that person see his problem rather than running away from it?

john Campbell wrote:
Some classic philosophers believe the soul to be located in some part of one’s body,eg. ,head,chest,stomach (logos,thymos,eros),in this case many may find their in their ass.

Well personally I'm not really interested in what some philosophers believed or didn't believe. I would rather find out for myself. And how can you do that if you come in with beliefs in something like the soul intact? I guess what I'm curious about is why someone who is interested in what K had to point out hang onto the belief in the soul? Don't you think that it makes it more difficult to understand what K pointed out if you remain attached to your beliefs, your conditioning?

john Campbell wrote:
How ‘quaint’ for someone to believe that they have found the truth,and can now divorce themselves from life.

I don't know who you are referring to here. It can't be me because all I did was question the belief that there was a soul. Now if I would have questioned that belief and then tried to replace it with another belief then you would have been justified in saying "...someone to believe that they have found the truth" but I didn't.

john Campbell wrote:
At least I received a few coin from the Tooth Fairy.

OK, look I take no pleasure in this but it wasn't the Tooth Fairy it was your parents. I'm sorry I had to tell you that, really.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 26 Jun 2014.

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #23
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

b teulada wrote:
ah ah ah ! yes, just realised that!!!

B, she's really cute, blue eyes and freckles. Is this a random picture off the internet or is it someone you know?

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #24
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
B, she's really cute, blue eyes and freckles. Is this a random picture off the internet or is it someone you know?

oh no, no, totally random.
the gap between her teeth is quite something.... bet the tooF fairy left her quite an impressive little tower of coins :))

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #25
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
B, she's really cute, blue eyes and freckles. Is this a random picture off the internet or is it someone you know?

still have to reply to your # 16. will do tomorrow

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #26
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
Belief.

well forget about belief then. let's start from the beginning. tooth fairies do not exist. you are suggesting neither does love.
just so that i know what we are talking about, what meaning do you attribute to the word "love"?

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Thu, 26 Jun 2014 #27
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

b teulada wrote:
what meaning do you attribute to the word "love"?

Belief. We believe in love like children believe in tooth faries. If you look carefully you will see that what goes on in human interpersonal relationship has nothing to do with any word Krishnamurti used and/or the meaning he attributes to it.

Stuff happens

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Fri, 27 Jun 2014 #28
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
Belief. We believe in love like children believe in tooth faries. If you look carefully you will see that what goes on in human interpersonal relationship has nothing to do with any word Krishnamurti used and/or the meaning he attributes to it.

do you mean that people never truly forget themselves (their own "selves") in the relation?
ok, i think you may be right in general.
but then it's difficult to gauge whether someone who does something wonderfully good and generous is doing so to feel good about themselves, no?
as i see it, it is as much a matter of belief thinking that the act is totally selfless as it is thinking that it can never be (your position, if i have understood you correctly), no?

This post was last updated by b. teulada (account deleted) Fri, 27 Jun 2014.

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Fri, 27 Jun 2014 #29
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
my brother sort of started his own religion where he thinks if he thinks it and believes it it must be the truth.

aren't all religions like that :) ?

i cannot say i know anything about alcoholism because, unlike drugs, i do not have any examples in either family or close friends, so maybe i cannot really comment on your post but i think you are making a connection between depression and addiction (=escape) that i am not sure can be made so easily.

i think apart from egotistical people (because, obviously the more you focus on your own problems the more you strengthen them), the other category of people that may probably be inclined to depression are the ones who feel things very deeply, very intensly, like artists for instance.
the other side of this coin is, of course, that this ability to feel things very deeply is usually a by-product of a hightened sensitivity, which is something K always stressed as being a pre-requirement of intelligence.

i would say that very sensitive people without the right understanding, yes, are possibly more likely to be depressed.
i would go as far as saying that hightened sensitivity can therefore have a bad outcome (depression and other problems) or a good outcome (the one Krishnamurti pointed to).

in that sense, i agree with what Jean said about suicidal people being closer to the truth, but possibly for reasons different from Jean's, that is not because those people have understood that it is necessary to "eliminate" oneself but because with the right understanding they could fly higher than most.

let's say that while the majority of average people fit into life just fine without giving the whole thing a second thought, it is the people on the highest end of the intelligence spectrum that walk on thin ice, in psychological and emotional terms. I think a very illustrative example of this would be David Bohm.

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Fri, 27 Jun 2014 #30
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

b teulada wrote:
as i see it, it is as much a matter of belief thinking that the act is totally selfless as it is thinking that it can never be (your position, if i have understood you correctly), no?

Well, that certainly is a nice piece of reasoning/logical deduction. Not quite sure how I'm expected to respond to it though.

I'm not sure why you associate "can never be" with "your (my) position" either. I generally don't take specific positions as a defense is then required.

The paridigm of "totally" and/or "can never be" is a classic dual view.

Stuff happens

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