Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Embracing our feelings without judgement ...


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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #1
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

The quote of the day touches a very important issue:

>"What would happen to a feeling if you did not judge it by the frame of reference - that is, if you do not name verbally that feeling or quality?"

>JK. - Group Discussion 13th December, 1947 | Madras, India

The problem is our judgements about our inner experiences and feelings, we live in dichotomies, polarities: looking for good feelings and experiences (pleasure etc.) and rejecting/resisting the bad feelings (anger, fear, grief etc.).

This resistance to what we label 'bad' feelings (or so-called 'negative' emotions) creates tensions and emotional reactions and conflicts, inside and outside ... often leading to 'substitute' irrational behaviours like addictions or mental disorders (neuroses, depression, obsessive behaviours, phobias etc.) ...

So can we learn to embrace all of our feelings and experiences, without judgement, without resistance to 'what is' ?

And remain in choiceless (ie. non-judgemental) awareness ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Mon, 20 Oct 2014.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #2
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 1094 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:"What would happen to a feeling if you did not judge it by the frame of reference - that is, if you do not name verbally that feeling or quality?"

I think that what you would do is just feel it. Perhaps much more intensely and more real.

Jean Gatti wrote:The problem is our judgments about our inner experiences and feelings,...

Jean Gatti wrote:We live in dichotomies, polarities: looking for good feelings and experiences (pleasure etc.) and rejecting/resisting the bad feelings (anger, fear, grief etc.).

Yes, we live in vicissitude. But wouldn't you say that time itself is at the center of the problem rather than the judgments we make regarding our feelings after the fact? Eg. I want to feel better so I buy some chocolate. While I eat the chocolate I feel good, but because I have, working in time, induced a high, it is guaranteed that a low will follow. This is why K said also said:

"whoever seeks pleasure, of any description whatsoever, invites sorrow."

In creating a high we unwittingly create a reciprocal low, which we then try to counter and the dog-chasing-its-tail scenario is perpetuated.

Jean Gatti wrote:This resistance to what we label 'bad' feelings (or so-called 'negative' emotions) creates tensions and emotional reactions and conflicts, inside and outside ... often leading to 'substitute' irrational behaviours like addictions or mental disorders (neuroses, depression, obsessive behaviours, phobias etc.) ...

We might just say 'frustration' and its spin-offs, yes. But It seems to me you're viewing the spin-off as the cause rather than the effect.

Jean Gatti wrote:So can we learn to embrace all of our feelings and experiences, without judgement, without resistance to 'what is'? And remain in choiceless (ie. non-judgemental) awareness?

I don't really think that can be done, Jean. You see, it seems to amount to treating the effect rather than the cause. I'm sorry but it seems to me that what you're suggesting is actually just more of the same; ie, get rid of samsara to maintain nirvana. The old vicissitude revisited. Savvy?

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

This post was last updated by John Perkins (account deleted) Mon, 20 Oct 2014.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #3
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Can I face my bad feelings (fear, anger, anxiety, sorrow etc.) without looking for an escape ? without 'reacting' to it ? without even labelling the experience as good or bad, without judgement ?

Obviously most of us cannot. I wonder why the label/judgement is so strong. Is it because the child often cannot discern between imagination and reality and is easily brainwashed? A child will quite easily accept the idea of a 'Santa Claus' for instance, or an Easter Bunny as 'real'. We have a family friend who is 'mentally ill' for all his adult life...beginning in adolescence. He was brought up with a strict Catholic background and totally identifies with all the 'sin' and 'salvation' judgments he was brainwashed with as a child. He suffers terrible nightmares sometimes believing he is 'damned' and will go to hell. Other times in a religious mania he believes he is Jesus, or believes he has psychic powers. His idea of Jesus, of course, is just that...an idea/image that he takes to be reality...based upon the fantasy image he was given by the Catholic church. We all carry similar images, though more subtle, but probably equally pernicious.

Let it Be

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #4
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline


Jean Gatti wrote:

Can I face my bad feelings (fear, anger, anxiety, sorrow etc.) without looking for an escape ?

This is certainly a valid question to ask oneself. Why am I always looking for an escape from the inner conflicts and suffering? Why do I believe in a 'me' who can act on all the 'problems'....that is separate from them? Is this 'me'/'I' separate or only a projection of the problem itself...an act of avoidance/escape? The 'good me' attempting to change the 'bad me'(the fear, anger, etc). One fragment of consciousness acting on another....always conflict between the various fragments of 'me'. It seems that until we understand this fundamental fragmentation in consciousness, the 'me' fragment will always try to act upon the 'not me' fragments(the problems/conflicts) and the conflict/s will go on. Isn't this separate 'me' the principal reason I can't 'face my bad feelings'? I can't face them because I'm dividing from them...by my very nature!

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 20 Oct 2014.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #5
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Obviously most of us cannot. I wonder why the label/judgement is so strong. Is it because the child often cannot discern between imagination and reality and is easily brainwashed? A child will quite easily accept the idea of a 'Santa Claus' for instance, or an Easter Bunny as 'real'.

Hi Tom,

So here we are, back to childhood, right ?

What happened there ?

Didn't our parents teach us what was right or wrong, good or bad ? ... after all this is the role of parents, no ? and what happened when we did something not pleasing our parents ? ... so we had to learn how to behave in order to be 'acceptable', not rejected, recognized and loved ... we learned what was good and what was bad ... and we started to repress or suppress the 'bad' feelings ... we became what others wanted us to become ... second-hand persons ... which means that we have 'alienated' part of ourselves ... we have created a split personality: the social acceptable 'me' separate from the real 'me' ... a social mask ... a fa├žade ...

And this split is the root of all psychological disorders and conflicts.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

Can I face my bad feelings (fear, anger, anxiety, sorrow etc.) without looking for an escape ?

This is certainly a valid question to ask oneself. Why am I always looking for an escape from the inner conflicts and suffering? Why do I believe in a 'me' who can act on all the 'problems'....that is separate from them?

Right Tom, this is the question indeed.

Remember that this 'reaction', this escape, comes from our childhood ... we want to be acceptable, we need others to recognize us, we want a social status ... so there is always a need to impose those 'social' rules on ourselves, we have to conform to the rules of society: beliefs, traditions, culture, authorities etc ... because we fear so much to be rejected ... to be abandoned ...

This is why K said that we must learn to be alone, totally alone psychologically ... there is no freedom as long as we behave the way others want us to be ... there is no freedom in being a second-hand personality ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #7
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 1094 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Now the question is: Can I face my bad feelings (fear, anger, anxiety, sorrow etc.) without looking for an escape ? without 'reacting' to it ? without even labelling the experience as good or bad, without judgement ?

Letting those feelings be as they are, while feeling/living them fully.

Embracing the fulness of life as it happens. Without any resistance.

Are you saying that you yourself are in this place (ie doing this) and the reason you repeat these questions of K's as though they were your own is because you want us to get where you are, like K did?

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
we have to conform to the rules of society: beliefs, traditions, culture, authorities etc ... because we fear so much to be rejected ... to be abandoned ...

Yes, that's it I feel....this primitive fear instilled in the little child is behind all the madness...the wars, the religious fanaticism, the alcoholism and drugs, the greed of the super rich and power hungry. It all comes from this fear of abandonment, rejection and punishment. What damage is done to the little child by these images of good and bad, right and wrong, and so on!!

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 20 Oct 2014.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #9
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 1094 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes John, this is the core of it: I feel bad and I want to 'cover' this 'bad' feeling by some 'good' feeling, looking for an escape, right? Isn't this the root of all addictions? Because I feel bad, I drink alcohol or take drugs or tranquilizers or overeat ... and all this is neurotic, it is a substitute, a sedation of my frustration or anxiety or depression. So looking for pleasure is a 'reaction' ... instead of facing my 'bad' experience, I look for an escape in distractions, entertainment, addictions etc ...

I think you've missed my point once again, Jean. You see, what I tried to spell out is that in your suggested action here you have already separated the 'bad' from the 'good' in order to - as you put it - fully experience the 'bad'. That puts you back in the same old cyclical pattern. Can't either you or Tom see that? I think I explained it pretty fully at #2

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

This post was last updated by John Perkins (account deleted) Tue, 21 Oct 2014.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

John Perkins wrote:
I think you've missed my point again, Jean. You see, what I tried to spell out is that in your suggested action here you have already separated the 'bad' from the 'good'. That puts you back in the same old cyclical pattern

Are you saying that by attempting to 'face my problems' I'm creating an image of the 'good me' who can do the 'facing' of the 'problem/s' which are separate from 'me'? Just more division in consciousness and time.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 20 Oct 2014.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
WHO says the truth is not important ...

And WHO says the lie is equally unimportant. Better to question/challenge a statement that we feel is untrue, than to attack the WHO who said it.

Let it Be

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Can I face my bad feelings (fear, anger, anxiety, sorrow etc.) without looking for an escape ?

But the minute a person names something bad or good he is not seeing that thing anymore he is just seeing his conditioning, experience. Saying something is "bad" is a judgment, an opinion, which immediately denies seeing something as it is.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 20 Oct 2014.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #13
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
OK Tom, we are on track now

What does this mean "on track"? A track runs from point A to point B. What this really means is that a person on "track" is not exploring, not trying to find out but rather already thinks he knows where he is going, what the destination is. Is there a track or path to truth? Doesn't that make "truth" static and therefore not truth at all?

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #14
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 1094 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
Are you saying that by attempting to 'face my problems' I'm creating an image of the 'good me' who can do the 'facing' of the 'problem/s' which are separate from 'me'? Just more division in consciousness and time.

Did you intend a question mark on the last sentence, or as written?

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #15
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 1094 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean, a technical question if you'd be so good... How does one go about separating two or more previous quotes, eg. like you did at #14? Thanks...

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

This post was last updated by John Perkins (account deleted) Mon, 20 Oct 2014.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #16
Thumb_stringio Bob D. United States 273 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

All feelings are the same once the judgement is gone. There is no difference between them

If you can roll in it...it's gotta be healthy.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #17
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

John Perkins wrote:
Did you intend a question mark on the last sentence, or as written?

I wrote it in a hurry and probably intended it as a question to you....though it seems obvious that such statements as Jean's could be seen as implying division and time....going from point A to point B.

Let it Be

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #18
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
When we see that anything we 'do' comes from the same 'root' and therefore only perpetuates the disorder ?

I agree, Jean....this is surely a crucial question. Does one really see/understand this? Or is it an intellectual conclusion? If it's intellectual obviously there won't be an end to the conflict.

Let it Be

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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Bob D. wrote:
All feelings are the same once the judgement is gone. There is no difference between them

The title of this thread, "Embracing our feelings without judgment....." indicates a profound lack of understanding of who is embracing, what are feelings and who is judging.

All three have the same root, the self, consciousness, conditioning. Feelings are judgments and who is embracing? Someone says something to me I take it as an insult (judgment). I feel hurt and/or angry (feelings). And the most ludicrous of all..."embracing". So the embracer (which is the self) embraces our feelings(the self again) without judgment? But the self is judgment.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 21 Oct 2014.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #20
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
So the embracer (which is the self) embraces our feelings(the self again) without judgment? But the self is judgment.

So you are saying the embracer is the embraced?

Stuff happens

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #21
Thumb_stringio Chris Dent Australia 187 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

John Perkins wrote:
Jean, a technical question if you'd be so good... How does one go about separating two or more previous quotes, eg. like you did at #14? Thanks...

Hi John, if you highlight/select the text you want to reply to and hit the 'quote' button at the bottom of the panel, a reply box opens up with the quoted text separated (as above). If, when you highlight/select the text, you include an existing quote panel, this will be placed inside a box inside the other box automatically. You can then edit any of the text as long as you leave the tags (<>/cite etc) intact. Those among us who know about writing computer codes probably just type these in as they go but the shortcuts are easier.

You can also copy and paste, or type, text into your reply and then click on the " (fourth icon from the left) above the panel in which you are writing and this will create a text box like this one.

Adding another tag (>) before part of the text (you'll see what I mean when you type), so that it now looks like (> >) means another box is created within the other one, like this.

And again, kind of fun really.

Could go on indefinitely I suspect!

Chris

Nothing but awareness......

This post was last updated by Chris Dent (account deleted) Tue, 21 Oct 2014.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #22
Thumb_stringio Bob D. United States 273 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
The title of this thread, "Embracing our feelings without judgment....." indicates a profound lack of understanding of who is embracing, what are feelings and who is judging.

All three have the same root, the self, consciousness, conditioning. Feelings are judgments and who is embracing? Someone says something to me I take it as an insult (judgment). I feel hurt and/or angry (feelings). And the most ludicrous of all..."embracing". So the embracer (which is the self) embraces our feelings(the self again) without judgment? But the self is judgment.

I agree 100%. How bout that jack, we agree on something.

If you can roll in it...it's gotta be healthy.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #23
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 1094 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Thanks for #24 Chris... :-)

I'll have a little mess-around.

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #24
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 1094 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Bob D. wrote:
I agree 100%. How bout that jack, we agree on something.

...And here's another 100%er on Jack's #22 also...

I'd guess it's why the subsequent statements attempting to support the ideas don't hang together either.

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

This post was last updated by John Perkins (account deleted) Tue, 21 Oct 2014.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #25
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 1094 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Bob D. wrote:
How bout that jack, we agree on something.

What you two been finding to disagree about? You both seem pretty feet-on-the-ground to me.

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #26
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 1094 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Chris Dent wrote:
John Perkins wrote:

Jean, a technical question if you'd be so good... How does one go about separating two or more previous quotes, eg. like you did at #14? Thanks... If, when you highlight/select the text, you include an existing quote panel, this will be placed inside a box inside the other box automatically.

Yeah, that's what I would have expected, Chris, but it don't seem to work out like that for me. ... Eg. what I've done here is exactly what you just detailed and this is what came out.

Any ideas?

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

This post was last updated by John Perkins (account deleted) Tue, 21 Oct 2014.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #27
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Bob D. wrote:
I agree 100%. How bout that jack, we agree on something.

Good. It never crossed my mind that you wouldn't.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #28
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
So you are saying the embracer is the embraced?

Of course.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #29
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

John Perkins wrote:
You both seem pretty feet-on-the-ground to me.

I'm so glad you didn't say "boots on the ground". An euphemism the US government uses to distract our attention away from the fact that young men and women are being sent to kill and be killed for absolutely nothing beyond increasing the profits of war profiteers and to satisfy the selfish ends of psychopathic politicians.

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Tue, 21 Oct 2014 #30
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:
When we see that anything we 'do' comes from the same 'root' and therefore only perpetuates the disorder ?

I agree, Jean....this is surely a crucial question. Does one really see/understand this? Or is it an intellectual conclusion? If it's intellectual obviously there won't be an end to the conflict.

Right Tom, so before 'doing' anything we must first understand how it works, how an emotional reaction arises.

Let us see what happens in an example: I am walking in the street and for some reasons, a man starts to shout at me and insult me.

What happens ?

Immediately there arises in me an emotional reaction, right ? I feel hurt and maybe I will react emotionally to this 'challenge' or threat perception by shouting and insulting back.

But why ?

After all, why would I care about this unknown man shouting at me and insulting me ? Does the opinion of this man have any importance to me, why let him 'trigger' my emotional reaction, upsetting me, 'pushing my buttons' ?

So what happened exactly ?

What happened is this: I meet a situation where my self image is challenged and my memory immediately goes back to the past and superimposes a situation from my childhood when my parents disapproved me ... and of course, being a child it is of the utmost importance not to be rejected by my parents, because for a child, being rejected would mean abandonment and probably death ... so this memory from the past, which has not been fully resolved in my adult life, is still operating, still alive ... and when I meet a conflictual situation, I immediately superimpose the emotional situation of the past unto the present situation ...

Is it reasonable to do so ?

Of course not, because the opinion of this man insulting me has no importance for me as an adult ... so there is no need to react to it. I can perfectly stay with the challenge, and instead of reacting out of an emotional defense, bring an adequate response like : why do you feel the need to insult me ?

So we see that we are in fact totally responsible of our own quality of experience, we are deciding (mainly unconsciously) of our own emotions.

So why let others 'push our buttons' ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 21 Oct 2014.

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