Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What are dulling factors?


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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #1
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Struggling with this lately-losing my capacity for insight. I would say, besides physical factors which are obvious, 1)Authority- that of someone you follow, eg, a therapist, any authority really. 2)Disconnect from nature. And the opposite of these I think is true- banishing authority, standing on your own, and, making a connection with nature, create capacity. and 3)I hope, discussing topics with others. Getting another head involved. It can get the cobwebs out, if you've been too much in your own head. Any others anyone can think of? Does anyone else struggle with dullness at all?

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #2
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Mr Clean does away with all dullness. Try himalt text

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #3
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I wish!

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #4
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

But seriously . . . One thing that renders life dull is a superficial mind, which doesn't go very deep into anything. It turns away at the slightest resistance (internal as well as external).

We have become chronically adapted to expecting an ease of understanding that just isn't realistic and we underestimate the element of resistance that always crops up, whatever direction we turn. And then we say, "Well, anyway . . . "

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #5
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"Well, anyway..." I know. Sometimes it's hard to fight. Sometimes impossible. I suppose from what you're saying, one should see the resistance.. And push, question. It's just so fucking hard, sometimes, when everything's against you.

One more thing I recalled, from K's Notebook: "The brain is the center of all the senses; the more the senses are alert and sensitive the sharper the brain is"

I've noticed, too, from the Commentaries, notebooks etc, that he always starts out with a nature scene. I thought it quietens one to listen, but perhaps it stimulates at the same time, nature?

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3176 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
And push, question.

t's just so fucking hard, sometimes, when everything's against you.

Is that the way, mike...struggle and effort to overcome the "dullness"? Effort to achieve the desired goal of clarity? Does struggle bring clarity?

Let it Be

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #7
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
Does struggle bring clarity?

I think it can. When you're discontented with everything, when you struggle to overcome your conditioning, don't accept, fight... otherwise you just accept everything.

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3176 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Does struggle bring clarity?
I think it can. When you're discontented with everything, when you struggle to overcome your conditioning, don't accept, fight...

We've tried that, yet there's dullness, still. Why hasn't struggle removed the dullness? Is it that we need more time...more struggle? I think this excerpt from K. that I posted on another thread might be helpful: http://www.kinfonet.org/krishnamurti/excerpts/1...

Let it Be

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #9
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
Does anyone else struggle with dullness at all?

Maybe it is the struggle itself that is dulling. I believe Krishnamurti remarked to this effect.

max

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #10
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
I think it can. ["Does struggle bring clarity?"] When you're discontented with everything, when you struggle to overcome your conditioning, don't accept, fight... otherwise you just accept everything.

Can you stop struggling and fighting by continuing to struggle and fight? It can't be done. So long as you are struggling and fighting, you are struggling and fighting. And, when your attention is absorbed in struggle and conflict, how can there be clarity?

On the other hand, mere acceptance without understanding leads to conflict. Is there an alternative to both struggle and submission (acceptance)?

max

This post was last updated by max greene Thu, 06 Aug 2015.

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #11
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1470 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
...when you struggle to overcome your conditioning,...

A couple of thoughts about your post: Struggling to overcome your 'conditioning' IS your conditioning. You name a feeling in yourself as "dullness" and then there is a struggle to change, to 'become' the opposite. You have some 'insights' and when they disappear, you want that state back again...'insights' are stimulating, they make you feel that you are 'getting' somewhere, that you are alive. We are all 'unbalanced' to one degree or another, some of us more so than others and when things go over the line psychologically, dangerously etc. getting 'help' from someone trained to listen can be very necessary and very helpful.

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #12
Thumb_3203 Anonymous . Reunion 71 posts in this forum Offline

Pavil Davidov wrote:
But seriously . . . One thing that renders life dull is a superficial mind, which doesn't go very deep into anything.

Mind alone is not enough for going very deep, it requires whole your being, it requires sensitivity, and sensitivity is not of the mind. One who goes very deeply with a mind only for sure can be intelligent, but intellect is not a compassion. The understanding comes not through the mind, it has its roots in the mystery of life, the mind can only try to explain that mystery, but to experience that mystery, there must be deep sensitivity.

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Thu, 06 Aug 2015 #13
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
We've tried that, yet there's dullness, still. Why hasn't struggle removed the dullness? Is it that we need more time...more struggle? I think this excerpt from K. that I posted on another thread might be helpful: http://www.kinfonet.org/krishnamurti/excerpts/1...

Yes...good quote..I think the struggle is only emphasizing the me...

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #14
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
Authority- that of someone you follow, eg, a therapist, any authority really

Of course the authority of our own thinking is the major factor of associated issues. One uses their own opinion/thinking when choosing which therapist/guru to follow. So one never stands alone. Voices (authority) in the mind are always there wherever one goes.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #15
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
Getting another head involved. It can get the cobwebs out, if you've been too much in your own head.

The problem with this of course is one is simply adding to the internal chatter. Adding someone else's dullness (authoritative opinions) to our own is a major factor. Then one must use ones own authority to decide which "head/mind" to add, it's all very confusing (dull) you see.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #16
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
One thing that renders life dull is a superficial mind, which doesn't go very deep into anything

Yes, thinking/opinion/knowledge will only take one so far.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #17
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Maybe it is the struggle itself that is dulling

Well, the resistence/struggle with the fact of a dull superficial thinking process is an issue, as Paul pointed out.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #18
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
The problem with this of course is one is simply adding to the internal chatter. Adding someone else's dullness (authoritative opinions) to our own is a major factor. Then one must use ones own authority to decide which "head/mind" to add, it's all very confusing (dull) you see.

This is an interesting point and deserves going into. I wonder if your logic is a little brittle. After all this is real life, and one engages with others all the time, unless you live in a cave. It's not like deciding what book to read.

I think the aim of a forum such as this, or one of the aims, is to bounce off ideas with another. It doesn't mean you accept it as authority. Some points may stick, others may be dull and fall away.

I think especially in a field such as K, one can oneself become quite authoritative without the checking process of dialogue. It's not necessary, but it may be beneficial, particularly since there are very very few people around one who have gone into any of this. It's not like reading D.H.Lawrence, where you may bump into a fellow reader at a coffee shop. "Krishna-who?"

Then again, one must be grounded in K in oneself, otherwise you get tossed around by other dull minds, as you say. And if you are so grounded, do you need another head? Maybe not, but it may be engaging.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #19
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Is condemnation a dulling factor? Suppression? The whole "I shouldn't"? Not that one should act on every impulse, obviously, but condemnation as a whole seems to limit the free flowering of the brain, seems to make it weary with admonishments, rules, and so on, whereas seeing the thought, seeing the "I shouldn't", may give rise to an insight independent of suppression and its opposite.

I think conflict gives to the mind a certain energy, but it is full of friction, which ultimately wears one out, and again, dullness.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #20
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
After all this is real life, and one engages with others all the time,

Please elaborate on this "real life" a little if you would. Is it related to unreal life? People engage each other superficially, exchanging ideas and relating only to the ideas.

Please don't seek or use logic to comprehend what we are doing here/now.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #21
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
I think the aim of a forum such as this, or one of the aims, is to bounce off ideas with another. It doesn't mean you accept it as authority. Some points may stick, others may be dull and fall away

Where, in all the talks he gave, does Krishnamurti recommend one should " bounce off ideas with another"?

But the mind does accept and/or reject ideas. That is what thinking is/does. That is "what is". The whole process the human mind (your and mine) is engaged in is the process of authority. Just because you say you do/don't/will/won't accept/reject a certain idea, or ideas in general, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

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This post was last updated by randall merryman (account deleted) Fri, 07 Aug 2015.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #22
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
I think especially in a field such as K, one can oneself become quite authoritative without the checking process of dialogue. It's not necessary, but it may be beneficial, particularly since there are very very few people around one who have gone into any of this. It's not like reading D.H.Lawrence, where you may bump into a fellow reader at a coffee shop. "Krishna-who?"

In the scientific method, peer review of empirical/objective data has shown itself to be effective/adequate to the task/purpose. But in the area you are suggesting, it has, for a very long time now, shown itself to be quite inadequate/ineffective.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #23
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
Maybe not, but it may be engaging.

Yes, entertaining.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #24
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
Where, in all the talks he gave, does Krishnamurti recommend one should " bounce off ideas with another"?

Just to sort of elaborate on the obvious, the point here isn't that we should follow K's recommendations, but to bring out the obvious fact that he spent 60 plus years pointing out over and over that the path of knowledge is dulling and circular. Thinking/exchanging knowledge/information is not a way out.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #25
Thumb_3135 Jo D United Kingdom 38 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
I think especially in a field such as K, one can oneself become quite authoritative without the checking process of dialogue. It's not necessary, but it may be beneficial, particularly since there are very very few people around one who have gone into any of this.

It can also be like pooling resources. So if one person had a particular focus in one area and has spent a long time looking into and understanding that, they may come to the interaction with a simplified version, which can then be very useful for others. And another person brings something else etc. So this collective sharing can mean that as individuals we don't get as stuck for as long.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #26
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
It's not like reading D.H.Lawrence, where you may bump into a fellow reader at a coffee shop. "Krishna-who?"

Actually, when I first came across K I discovered myt sister had done teaching practice at Brockwood school many years before, something I hadn't known. That summer I was reading 'On Relationship' in Hyde Park, central London when a woman came and sat on the bench next to me and told me she'd been a student at Brockwood Park and had met K. In the Autumn, I met, quite by chance, a Russian woman who'd been reading K and Gurdjieff in a Leningrad group during the 1960's at a time when they were severely banned. I also had a friend in Cuba who was international secretary of the Federation of Cuban Women who used to read K, I discovered when I tired to introduce him to her. So, from my little experience of things, K does seem to be more widespread than one would think.

Haha, I was reading a rather thick book (South of the Limpopo by Dervla Murphy) at a coffee shop here in Sao Paulo. The waiter approached me smiling, a young man with an eager eye. He looked at the book and said excitedly, "I have one of those." I smiled back and asked, "You read Dervla Murphy?" His face turned slightly troubled and he explained, "No, I too have a book . . . a big one." I congratulated him and we agreed that big books are best.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #27
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
Where, in all the talks he gave, does Krishnamurti recommend one should " bounce off ideas with another"?

Fifth Talk in Stockholm, 1956 "It might be profitable this evening if we could spend the time really discussing. By this I do not mean that you should merely ask questions and wait for my answer, but let us exchange ideas and think things out together."

First Talk in the Oak Grove, 1960 "And perhaps we can, during one of these meetings, discuss, exchange ideas. As I said, this first talk is merely an outline of the contents of the book, and if you are content with the outline, with the headlines, with a few ideas, then I'm afraid you will not go very far."

First Talk in London 1952 "Perhaps, as we are going to meet during the whole of this month, we shall be able to talk over this problem more fully, exchange ideas, discuss them."

Granted, there was no "bouncing" mentioned :-)

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #28
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
Granted, there was no "bouncing" mentioned :-)

Sorry to have not been clearer, the point was not discussions with K himself, but as a method/path by followers 30 years after he died.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #29
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
Sorry to have not been clearer, the point was not discussions with K himself, but as a method/path by followers 30 years after he died.

Right

But I'm not sure Mike C is advocating "bouncing ideas" as a method either. It's just a phrase he used. What he is saying is that expressing viewpoints, thinking things out together, listening to one another, can be legitimate and useful when done intelligently.

That's what you're saying isn't it Mike? Help me out here, Mike. I'm out on a limb for you, Mike . . . . Mike??

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

This post was last updated by Pavil Davidov (account deleted) Fri, 07 Aug 2015.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2015 #30
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
What he is saying is that expressing viewpoints, thinking things out together, listening to one another, can be legitimate and useful when done intelligently.

Well, until we can find people/minds capable of such activity, I guess we won't know for sure.

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