Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Coming to truth


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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #1
Thumb_005 Nicholas Okumu Canada 70 posts in this forum Offline

Why was JK saying to come to truth? Yet coming to suggests not only a movement but also a search. But JK also said truth is a pathless land!

...the problems of duality...

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #2
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

The real question is : Are you fully satisfied with life as it is now ?

??

If you are not, then find why ... this very quest(ion) is movement to truth ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #3
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Nicholas Okumu wrote:
Why was JK saying to come to truth? Yet coming to suggests not only a movement but also a search. But JK also said truth is a pathless land!

There is no truth instead of that we invent ourselves.

Jean Gatti wrote:
The real question is : Are you fully satisfied with life as it is now ?

But should life be a satisfaction?

Jean Gatti wrote:
If you are not, then find why ... this very quest(ion) is movement to truth ...

Why should one search for a truth?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #4
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
There is no truth instead of that we invent ourselves.

"Ourselves" cannot arrive at truth, for sure, because the "self" is wrapped in its own selfishness. The self is totally insensitive to ought but itself.

But what if there is no "self"? There remains a physical body. There is a physical universe. There is living and awareness. These, I would say, are truth.

max

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #5
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
But should life be a satisfaction?

Because peace, satisfaction and happiness is natural state of being ... like silence is the natural state when the noises are removed ... silence is always there in the 'background' ... same for peace ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Why should one search for a truth?

Because one is not satisfied ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #7
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
But what if there is no "self"? There remains a physical body. There is a physical universe. There is living and awareness. These, I would say, are truth.

Yes, these are facts, but then what do you mean by truth? The ability to verify a fact?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #8
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Because peace, satisfaction and happiness is natural state of being ...

Jean Gatti wrote:
Because one is not satisfied ...

Then how does unsatisfaction, suffering and misery is not natural?

Jean Gatti wrote:
Because one is not satisfied ...

But the very search for a satisfaction creates the conflict, isn't it?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #9
Thumb_005 Nicholas Okumu Canada 70 posts in this forum Offline

Life cannot be a satisfaction; because this implies comparison. Comparison between being satisfied and not. This also implies choice. Choose to be satisfied and not. In addition to say that life may be a satisfaction also suggests ambition. Ambition to achieve. But JK once said in an interview with Dr. Anderson, that "...do away with ambition...". JK was talking about love. He also went on to question whether a CEO who has come to that level through aggression, ruthlessness, etc. can know love. Therefore, life in the real sense cannot be a choice, a satisfaction. We should be nothing!

...the problems of duality...

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #10
Thumb_005 Nicholas Okumu Canada 70 posts in this forum Offline

Exactly. The problem of duality.

...the problems of duality...

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #11
Thumb_005 Nicholas Okumu Canada 70 posts in this forum Offline

Does "...old.." mean the past? Knowledge? How do you destroy the old?. Destruction implies action; use of violence? Choice, direction, focus, concentration, will?

...the problems of duality...

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #12
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Nicholas Okumu wrote:
We should be nothing!

Life is what it is, and it doesn't matter what one thinks it is. If there is satisfaction, that's fine, if there is unsatisfaction, that's also fine, the conflict arises when one is torn by these two states, that is moving away from one to another.

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #13
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
But the very search for a satisfaction creates the conflict, isn't it?

Nobody told you to 'search' satisfaction ... but to understand the causes of un-satisfaction ... and this understanding does not create conflicts ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #14
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Then how does unsatisfaction, suffering and misery is not natural?

Could you restate your question Voco ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #15
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Nicholas Okumu wrote:
Life cannot be a satisfaction; because this implies comparison

I don't see why satisfaction implies comparison ? ... I would say the opposite is true ... you cannot find any satisfaction in comparing yourself with others ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #16
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Nicholas Okumu wrote:
The problem of duality.

What is duality ? and why is it a 'problem' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #17
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Nicholas Okumu wrote:
Does "...old.." mean the past? Knowledge? How do you destroy the old?. Destruction implies action; use of violence? Choice, direction, focus, concentration, will?

Yes, old is the past and I mean knowledge, not destroying humans or buildings of course. By destruction I don't mean an opposition, but a voluntary rejection of what is old, so the new might come.

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #18
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Nicholas Okumu wrote:
The problem of duality.

There is only one duality, as I see it, and that is the duality of the physical and the brain-created psychological. The psychological is the imaginary world of the self.

Nicholas Okumu wrote:
How do you destroy the old?

We create the old through thinking and thought. That is, we think about memory and in doing this we resurrect the past and bring it into the present. Surprise, surprise -- we have the old. We have the same old stale, tiresome problems.

The present, without this distortion, is always new, always fresh, unfolding on itself in harmonious and logical progression. Thinking and thought are the suppression and denial of the present.

max

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #19
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Nobody told you to 'search' satisfaction ... but to understand the causes of un-satisfaction ... and this understanding does not create conflicts ...

Is it that unsatisfaction that has causes or is it that unsatisfaction is being the cause itself? I think it is important to find out first what you think unsatisfaction is, why you think you are unsatisfacted. Why go on and search for cause of the causes and so on and on, isn't this exactly what we were doing for ages?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #20
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Why go on and search for cause of the causes and so on and on, isn't this exactly what we were doing for ages?

No what we have done for ages is seeking satisfaction in material things and 'worldly' possessions and status ... we have been seeking 'external' causes of unsatisfaction ... ... we are speaking here of a radically different approach which consists to understand the psychological (inner) root of un-satisfaction ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 14 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #21
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Is it that unsatisfaction that has causes

Indeed.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #22
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
No what we have done for ages is seeking satisfaction in material things and 'worldly' possessions and status ... we are speaking of a radically different approach which consists to understand the psychological root of un-satisfaction ...

Unsatisfaction and satisfaction is something very subjective, therefore it is important to find out what it is, finding the cause of it will not change anything. When you search for a cause you are moving away from what is there. We have been searching for inner and outward causes for thousand of years.

This post was last updated by Voco . Sun, 14 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #23
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Unsatisfaction and satisfaction is something very subjective, therefore it is important to find out what it is, finding the cause of it will not change anything.

Yes we have to understand what unsatisfaction is ... then we will know the cause of it ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #24
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes we have to understand what unsatisfaction is ... then we will know the cause of it ...

Yes, that's what I'm saying, but we are used to start from searching for causes immediately without even looking at what is there.

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #25
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Yes, that's what I'm saying, but we are used to start from searching for causes immediately without even looking at what is there.

Yes and generally we find those causes 'outside' while we have to look 'inside' ...

So having said this: What is the real nature of 'unsatisfaction' then ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 14 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #26
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote (post 7):
Yes, these are facts, but then what do you mean by truth?

No, they are the truth because they are. "Fact" is the memory of what was once the truth.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Sun, 14 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #27
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
No, they are the truth because they are.

There is The Bible, can we say that The Bible is truth? But it is a fact that it is there, you can verify that.

Jean Gatti wrote:
So having said this: What is the real nature of 'unsatisfaction' then ?

It is simply our construction, a conclusion based on experience, knowledge.

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #28
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
It is simply our construction, a conclusion based on experience, knowledge.

Could we say that unsatisfaction is just a thought ?

then what kind of thought is this ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #29
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
There is The Bible, can we say that The Bible is truth?

The bible exists and its existence is the truth. The koran exists, and its existence is the truth. You exist and your existence is the truth.

What the bible and the koran say may or may not be fact. What you say may or may not be fact. No one speaks the truth. The truth can only be lived.

max

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Mon, 15 Feb 2016 #30
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Could we say that unsatisfaction is just a thought ?

then what kind of thought is this ?

It is not just a thought, it is a conclusion which is based on experience and knowledge.

max greene wrote:
The bible exists and its existence is the truth. The koran exists, and its existence is the truth. You exist and your existence is the truth.

What the bible and the koran say may or may not be fact. What you say may or may not be fact. No one speaks the truth. The truth can only be lived.

What is the difference between truth and fact?

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