Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

A Noisy Space ?


Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 49 in total
Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #1
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Since it appears that this forum is not written to by many people at all unlike A Quiet Space, I wondered why this might be... Is this general discussion slot viewed to be otherwise - a 'noisy space' ?

It would appear to suggest that most of this site's members prefer more 'active' involvement by the forum moderator. I see the pros and cons of this - where this relates to 'freedom', 'authority', 'hierarchy' and so on.

I realise that Jean was ejected from there ( A Quiet Space) and yet he is still interested in discussing Krishnamurti's teachings . If the communication problem is stemming from a language barrier/difference then it would not be fair to suspend his account from here, too, would it ? And, especially, since K's teachings were not solely the 'stuff of books', semantics or (intentionally) anglo-centric either, as I see this.

I think that if you manage to stop over-posting here, Jean, and are willing to listen, too, to your fellow writers things can surely be resolved - speaking and listening to each other are essential to communication (dialogue), aren't they ?

What do other members have to say about why they/you feel disinclined to write to this general discussion slot ? It is actually what 'we' make of it, isn't it ?

Regards, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Fri, 19 Aug 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #2
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Katy. Like you, I have been away for a long time ( I guess) from this forum. I have been a participant , here and there in time. Like you I think. It is an interesting question that you rise with this thread here Katy. I think that the raison d'être, the reason why people come in such a forum, is because they want to share their understanding of K.'s teaching. And maybe some are looking for answers. In which case, I would be incline to refering them to the real thing, the teaching, the teacher. Some quote of some sort I guess. And the teacher would say: you are the teaching and the teach. Though, pointing out facts is good, facts may vary from one person to another. So one have to establish the real facts first :). Often, understanding vary from one people to another. But at the end, one is alone in his own life, this is where it is important. The problem arise when people don't agree or interprete the teaching . A discussion is a trip, a journey that 2 or more people can take together, when they go one step at the time, one fact after another.seeing things at the same time , together. Otherwise, it become argumentation about words, without substance, if I may say. I would invite evveryone interested in K.'s teaching to read your other post below (from a talk by J. Krishnamurti 1949 ), in which there is a lot of answer about communication. But there will always be people more interested in themselves than in the teaching. K. had a lot to say, and he was making a lot of sense. Can one understand this radical revolution he talk about ? That is maybe why this forum is all about. Not who is enligtened and who is not :).
Cheers.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Fri, 19 Aug 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #3
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

By the way, my first language is French , and I don't see any problem in saying it :)

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Fri, 19 Aug 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #4
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you very much, Richard, for your very astute reply...seeing these pointers with you - I hope / j'espere ! Katy :)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #5
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
I think that if you manage to stop over-posting here, Jean, and are willing to listen, too, to your fellow writers things can surely be resolved - speaking and listening to each other are essential to communication (dialogue), aren't they ?

What do other members have to say about why they/you feel disinclined to write to this general discussion slot ? It is actually what 'we' make of it, isn't it ?

Hi Katy,
Jean often argued with the words: I don't mind the so called secret of K.
It's obvious the meaning he gave this words is very different from K.
He seems to use it to defend his attitude.

I think to manage Jean will be a fruitless effort,
just as fruitless as we try to manage our ego.
Understanding that this is not the way,
naturally brings a different attitude towards him and his activity.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 19 Aug 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #6
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
It would appear to suggest that most of this site's members prefer more 'active' involvement by the forum moderator.

This is a very interesting thread you have started here Katy. And the comments up to but not necessarily including my own are, as you said about one, very astute. It feels good to read some intelligent things on this forum again. I hope we can come together on this forum and discuss things, not proclaim or interpret, but discuss together questions we have about what K pointed out.

As for the other forum I have nothing against it but I occasionally read it and at least one thing seems clear to me. They can and do say anything that comes to mind but some of it is so outrageous, so off the wall, and misses completely (in my opinion) what K was pointing out. But no one questions anything there. At least not seriously. There is no in depth peer review of comments because all that has been systematically removed through deletion of accounts of those who have seriously and stridently questioned something.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 4 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #7
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
I think that if you manage to stop over-posting here, Jean, and are willing to listen, too, to your fellow writers things can surely be resolved - speaking and listening to each other are essential to communication (dialogue), aren't they ?

This is a very kind and understanding offer and one wonders if it will be understood and taken in the same vein.

PS. Keep this in mind: We don't know for sure whether Jean is actually living in Belgium or that English is not his first language or that his name is Jean or that he is a he.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 20 Aug 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #8
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I hope we can come together on this forum and discuss things, not proclaim or interpret, but discuss together questions we have about what K pointed out.

Yes, same here, Jack.

Jack Pine wrote:
There is no in depth peer review of comments because all that has been systematically removed through deletion of accounts of those who have seriously and stridently questioned something.

Those factors are the forum's loss/limitation in that case, aren't they ? I suppose each forum has different things to offer.

When there were no guidelines at all in place this site came very close to anarchy, really, at times and hence the guidelines we now have here as you already know/see. ( I see that anarchy per se does, for sure, have a 'down side' and its opposite - maybe someone will be interested to initiate a discussion about this topic regarding freedom and its relationship to anarchy at some point here (?))

At the same time freedom of speech and expression is surely
still welcome here thanks to writers like you and a few others... asking a person to listen to and inquire with others instead of just preaching is not too much to ask, is it ?

Thanks also, Jack, for your elucidating replies.

Here's to the weekend ! Katy :)

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 20 Aug 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #9
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
I think to manage Jean will be a fruitless effort,
just as fruitless as we try to manage our ego.
Understanding that this is not the way,
naturally brings a different attitude towards him and his activity.

This reply/observation would indicate that you believe that Jean is 'fixed' in his attitude. You might be right but let's see...and is a 'fixed' attitude not a reaction, really, too ? Not everyone has had the same degree of opportunity or experienced environments which let him or her to discuss K's work in the spirit of inquiring freed from any conclusions and/or togetherness - instead of always feeling that one needs to be seen to be 'right or wrong'and so on.

Thanks, Wim, for sharing your view. Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 20 Aug 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #10
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 108 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
Since it appears that this forum is not written to by many people at all unlike A Quiet Space, I wondered why this might be... Is this general discussion slot viewed to be otherwise - a 'noisy space' ?

It would appear to suggest that most of this site's members prefer more 'active' involvement by the forum moderator. I see the pros and cons of this - where this relates to 'freedom', 'authority', 'hierarchy' and so on.

Hi Katy

This is Clive from "The quiet space" forum. The name has no real significance, it makes no claim. I simply chose it because of a comment from the moderator of the previous forum that closed, Jack.

Yes, I am moderator, since I initiated the forum. It is many months since since I have intervened at all in the postings, so in that way it has been "A quiet space". My only function as moderator was to prevent rudeness, personal attacks on others. There has never been any other censorship of comments.

I participate a lot in discussions, but not from any special position as moderator, just as a fellow inquirer.

I have indeed questioned the necessity of having more than one forum on Kinfonet. It can be gone into. I am not sure if the general discussion IS actively moderated, although I noticed there is no longer free membership. I inquired recently of Jack if Dev is an active presence.

When I started a quiet space there was definitely a need for a space where people could be confident they could post without being attacked personally, at least I felt so. I know there were people not participating because of this fear.

I am open into going into this issue

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #11
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 108 posts in this forum Offline

It is only recently that I have started to look at posts on the general forum.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #12
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Katy,

Thanks for starting this interesting thread. My posts are confined to this forum although I occassionally take a quick look at "A Quiet Space". I think Jack's point about challenge is valid. I feel it's helpful for discussions to include a rich mix of posters and posting styles and having ideas challenged can definitely help move discussions on and take them to places they otherwise wouldn't go. At the same time, new forum members may well feel hesitant to post at the beginning so, if possible, it's desirable to have a welcoming, friendly atmosphere in a forum if that's at all possible. If "we are the world" then we are also the forum. We all have a responsibility to try to ensure that an atmosphere exists which is conducive to learning about and understanding Krishnamurti's teachings.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #13
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
When I started a quiet space there was definitely a need for a space where people could be confident they could post without being attacked personally, at least I felt so. I know there were people not participating because of this fear.

Clive I think the "best" thing or maybe the most necessary thing you have done to insure any level of rational discussion on your forum was to remove Jean. You saw after just a couple of weeks what Jean can do to a discussion forum. I have actually had people come from other forums, the Tolle forum for one, and send me personal messages telling me how Jean, using others names (I think he uses Phil on the Tolle forum) is wrecking the discussion. I mean these people are livid in their comments about Jean. I got another message about him from someone who attributes the closing of the KFA forum to Jean and John Perkins.

Clive since you felt the need to remove Jean you can see how it might be that I feel the need to stop Jean with his excessive, irrelevant and random posting style which almost invariably suppresses rational discussion of any topic.

Jean is so sure that he already knows everything that it is no longer necessary for him to question and he doesn't. He thinks his role on this forum is to teach, to lead the rest of us to his understanding which is practically nil when it comes to what K pointed out.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #14
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 108 posts in this forum Offline

I have sent a personal mail to you Jack

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I have sent a personal mail to you Jack

Thanks for the heads up. We, apparently, don't receive an automatic notice when a message comes in anymore. I got on my message board when I saw your post and I had five or six messages there. Anyway I have replied to both of your messages sent to me recently. Take it easy.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #16
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 108 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, the message system seems to go wrong a lot

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #17
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Clive ,

Yes, seeing your good points with you... Thanks for writing.

Years ago there was a 'New Members' forum which I thought was a useful idea/space to have but I don't know if anyone actually took the time to moderate it closely/actively in the way that you are doing, Clive, for reasons you've stated. I think that the role you're in is probably very time consuming. Even initiating and taking part in more serious inquiry/ discussion - as just one writer - can be such.

Regards, Katy

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #18
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Sean,

Thank you for your reply (#12) and I totally agree with/see your point about every writer being responsible for generating the 'right' atmosphere for inquiry here.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #19
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

I have just received the following message from Paul..

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #20
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Katy,
Nice to see the thread you opened. The message below is primarily for yourself but if you want to post it on your thread I think it may be useful:
+++++++++++
As you may know, I left the forum voluntarily a few months back, being as how the discussion was really getting very drab. Little real concern for inquiry and far to much intellectualising, using K as a cover for one's own ego (I am not excluding myself in that critique).
What you may not know is that I have tried to reconnect, both with Clive and with Dev, in order to rejoin the site and offering to abide by any conditions they might wish. Unfortunately I have been excluded, without discussion. Dev says he is taking a backseat for now and wouldn't be able to deal with the "chaos" that might ensue were I to rejoin. He alluded to certain other posters by which I am guessing he may have meant Jean.
Clive admitted that while he couldn't actually know how I would behave in 'A Quiet Space" he nevertheless worked with the assumption that I might be some sort of problem for his forum and he didn't want that. I asked him to give me a trial and if it were so, he could exclude me, but he was not willing to do that and broke off communication with me. That's how it goes with Clive's forum.
So, there is a censorship going on, even if hidden. I'm not criticising it but pointing to the fact of it. There is prejudice and presumption. So be it. I am simply writing this, having read your thread, to alert people to the reality of it and to say I would like to participate, civily, on the site but am not allowed to.
Anyhow, best wishes to you and all
Paul.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #21
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

I would look forward to the return of Paul to all of the forums.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #22
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
What you may not know is that I have tried to reconnect, both with Clive and with Dev, in order to rejoin the site and offering to abide by any conditions they might wish.

Hi Katy and all. Thanks for sharing this Katy. This seems to be a positive step from Paul and I personally would welcome him back.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #23
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
This reply/observation would indicate that you believe that Jean is 'fixed' in his attitude. You might be right but let's see...and is a 'fixed' attitude not a reaction, really, too ?

Katy,

It's really not a fixed believe but so far a proved fact by Jean himself
( in fact it's my believe that everyone, including Jean, can change ),
in the relatively short time i'm active on this forum I had my fights with him,
as you can reread in my forum posts, which are all in tact.

For some unknown reason Jean afterwards remove some of his posts or close treads and refuses to gave explanation of his doing with the argument:
" don't complain, don't explain !"

The world is already a battleground and
adding a battle of words will not bring about any change psychologically.

I don't see a solution in banning him again, that would be a reaction,
the same with negation, so sometimes I give him a piece of my cake too ;-)

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 20 Aug 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Aug 2016 #24
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, I would like to see Paul return to the forum. I think he adds a lot of dimension and perspective to the discussion.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Aug 2016 #25
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Yes, I would like to see Paul return to the forum. I think he adds a lot of dimension and perspective to the discussion.

It's true jack...and if he keeps his muzzle on he won't be able to bite anyone..maybe just 'nip' a bit.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Aug 2016 #26
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
and if he (Paul) keeps his muzzle on he won't be able to bite anyone..

IF ...

I think we should respect Dev's decision ... which is wise ... and not put any more pressure on his shoulders ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 21 Aug 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Aug 2016 #27
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
" don't complain, don't explain !"

New York City | 1st Public Talk 11th March, 1935

"Please do not, if I may suggest, look to me for new explanations during this talk, or for a set of formulas, or definitions. Such explanations and formulas offer only means of escape from conflict. Most minds desire to copy, imitate, follow, because they cannot think for themselves, or else the conflict is so intense that they would rather escape through systems, through definitions, through explanations."

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Aug 2016 #28
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
in the relatively short time i'm active on this forum I had my fights with him

Why 'fight' ? Isn't 'fight' a resistance to 'what is' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Aug 2016 #29
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 108 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
Clive admitted that while he couldn't actually know how I would behave in 'A Quiet Space" he nevertheless worked with the assumption that I might be some sort of problem for his forum and he didn't want that. I asked him to give me a trial and if it were so, he could exclude me, but he was not willing to do that and broke off communication with me. That's how it goes with Clive's forum.

The way Paul has misrepresented the communication that we had over the issue of his joining "A quiet space" is an indication that I took the right decision.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Aug 2016 #30
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 108 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
. I think that the role you're in is probably very time consuming. Even initiating and taking part in more serious inquiry/ discussion - as just one writer - can be such.

You are right Katy, I do spend a lot of my time working on the forum, I happen to consider it a worth while thing. The world is in need of spaces where serious discussion of a fundamental nature can go on, and it is a rare enough thing.

Fortunately, for some time now, after a few initial bannings, I have not had much work as moderator, there has been no need to 'control things' much on A Quiet Space. So I have been able to devote myself to the discussions, which is as it should be. One troublesome contributor can take up an awful lot of time, apart from introducing a certain anxiety into things.

The fact is I do not have the proper tools to function efficiently as a moderator. I should be able to put someone 'on alert', so that all his/her posts have to be moderated before appearing on the forum. But I don't. If I did, I probably would not ban anyone.

And I want to reiterate that no one has ever been banned because of his opinions, his perceptions, Only because of rudeness, of “shooting the messenger”, of making discussions personal. Non of that is dialogue.

I do not like discussing individuals in public, but since I have been appealed to on the matter of Paul Davidson (and other aliases) I will say a few words.

I have also received mails asking me NOT to allow him on the forum. And I know for a fact that there are serious, sensitive people who ceased to participate on the General Forum because of Paul and others of similar manner. As I said, this is why I created a new forum.

I have personal experience of Paul's style. Years ago, twice, I tried to initiate discussion on a couple of issues on the general forum, and I was immediately fiercely attacked by him. Not just on what I had expressed, but personally. I was shocked, amazed that sort of thing happened on a forum devoted to discussing Krishnamurti's teachings. And quite recently I had a prolonged 'discussion' with him, and I found a great absence of the positive qualities that have been attributed to him by others. There was great bias, prejudice, distortion. It certainly was not dialogue.

So I will follow my own perceptions in this matter of Paul. I will add that I have also had some actual, in the flesh contact with him, and so am in a position to make certain assessments.

Finally, if people are dissatisfied with the existing forums, or are no longer allowed to participate, I advice them to start their own forum, where they can set their own rules and standards – or have non. That is easy enough to do. And they can do the work of moderating!

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 6 readers
Back to Top
Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 49 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)