Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

When K returns, what will you do with him?


Displaying posts 91 - 101 of 101 in total
Sat, 08 Sep 2018 #91
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 419 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti didn't like the word enlightened that most Indian gurus used to make money. He simply saw the uselessness of the self and abandoned it. But we are different, we like our conditioning as a Hindu or Muslim or Catholic or Jewish even though it causes conflict and misery .

This post was last updated by Goodman B Sat, 08 Sep 2018.

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Sat, 08 Sep 2018 #92
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1195 posts in this forum Offline

Thinking about identification and innocence. Much of identification is so ugly and innocence is so beautiful. Also thinking about confusion. Where there is identification there is confusion which is something terrible and painful. And one wishes to end that state, that confusion. That innocence is of the "light". It has no past, no history. Identification is something that is material. It has a history it exists in time. One is almost always identified with ones history, one has a past that is memory, that is in matter. It is possible to see that one is not that matter. In really seeing that, identification with the past stops. That state is innocence. That may be only momentary or it may sustain for a time but time there has very little significance. Ending identification as person, ending identification in time, ending identification with the material there is innocence. One is that light but there is no identification there.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Sun, 09 Sep 2018.

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Sun, 09 Sep 2018 #93
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1195 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
If it is argued that enlightenment is something else altogether, then what is that? What could that be for someone who has not experienced it? Isn't it for them just idea...thought.?

And suppose someone has had an experience of something beyond this "light" in oneself. K points out that what is significant is experiencing not an experience only remembered.

Is there any value in having had such an experience? In having such a memory?

I am asking that question.

If K were here I would ask him.

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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 #94
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1159 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
Is there any value in having had such an experience? In having such a memory?

I am asking that question.

If K were here I would ask him.

why bother him again with a question he has already answered

Freedom, Love and Action | Eight Conversations, Second conversation

Questioner: I still don't know what you mean by enlightenment...

Krishnamurti: A state of negation. Negation is the most positive action, not positive assertion..... Negation is the state of enlightenment which functions in all the activities of a man who is free of the past. It is the past, with its tradition and its authority, that has to be negated. Negation is freedom, and it is the free man who lives, loves, and knows what it means to die.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 #95
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1195 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Wim,

Thank you for posting.

So do we need to be free of the influence of K? Is it right to remember things from the books we have read? Are there understandings we carry from the past? Are those rememberences a mistake, are they something that is false? Aren't there things that we remember that have changed us? Are we to have change and to have no residue of the changing, no rememberence? Is the present free of the past? ever? at moments? And there is memory that is necessary and unavoidable? We need to remember where we live...There are things we can't forget. Is there a present that has no past?

I am just now exploring this. I am asking myself.

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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 #96
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1195 posts in this forum Offline

Is the person, personhood, memory,... only that?

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Mon, 10 Sep 2018.

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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 #97
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 419 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti: One does not like to use the word ‘enlightenment’, it is so loaded with the meaning given by all these gurus. They do not know what they are talking about; not that the speaker knows, that would be silly on his part, but one sees what is involved when they talk about achieving enlightenment, step by step, practising, so that the mind becomes dull, mechanical, stupid.

23rd Question - Saanen, 1st Question & Answer Meeting -

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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 #98
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1195 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Goodman and Wim

K uses the word transformation quite a bit. I think we could substitute the word/the notion transformation everywhere or at least in most of the places we have used the word enlightenment in the posts above.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Mon, 10 Sep 2018.

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Tue, 11 Sep 2018 #99
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1159 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
K uses the word transformation quite a bit. I think we could substitute the word/the notion transformation everywhere or at least in most of the places we have used the word enlightenment in the posts above.

Hi Peter,

First: This reply is also based on yours #95 !

One of the great advantages is that the words of K. are on audio and video tape, so let us not start to change them for our ease/convenience.

Something different take place when I speak from memory of the words or when I speak from understanding of the words. In my view is that the meaning of: 'I am not important but what I am saying is!'

So if understanding take place it's not the influence of K. but of what he has said is incorporated (nice word by the way).

So one act on the base of incorporated or on base of what is remembered of him saying, only in the last thought is active.

I recently used a quote from K. explaining the process of thought in which he pointed to the scope of the present:

Ojai, California | 10th Public Talk 1945

The present extends into the past and into the future; without the understanding of the present the door to the past is closed. The perception of the new is so fleeting; no sooner is it felt than the swift current of the past sweeps over it and the new ceases to be. To die to the many yesterdays, to renew each day is only possible if we are capable of being passively aware. In this passive awareness there is no gathering to oneself; in it there is intense stillness in which the new is ever unfolding, in which silence is ever extending with measure

So in constantly observing 'what, why and how' you are doing reveals the psychological state of what is going on and that could be jealousy, creed, showing of, building on your image etc. etc..

just the flowering of you present state of Being.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 11 Sep 2018 #100
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1195 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
To die to the many yesterdays, to renew each day is only possible if we are capable of being passively aware. In this passive awareness there is no gathering to oneself; in it there is intense stillness in which the new is ever unfolding, in which silence is ever extending with measure

So in constantly observing 'what, why and how' you are doing reveals the psychological state of what is going on and that could be jealousy, creed, showing of, building on your image etc. etc..

just the flowering of you present state of Being.

Hello again Wim,

Some feelings came up in reading what you wrote..Self criticism.

Passive awareness ends that. Have you ever watched to see how it is that that passive awareness happens? There seems to be a sudden shift. Quite mysterious. Is it wrong to even mention it?

I think you wanted greed instead of creed and you wanted off instead of of.

Is there anything one (we) can do for the world?

Thank you for engaging me in conversation.

Peter

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Tue, 11 Sep 2018 #101
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1159 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
I think you wanted greed instead of creed and you wanted off instead of of.

You're right.

Is there anything one (we) can do for the world?

my only answer would be, being passive aware, but immediately seeing
that that's nothing to do with we/us/one, that seems to be of a different order.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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