Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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fundamental change or revealing true character ?


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Mon, 08 Oct 2018 #1
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

i've noticed the change of one of our forum members not only in name but also in image.
Goodman B with the ape image is changed in ' myself only ' with the image of flying geese.

taking on another name , image and or clothing seems to me more a flight of your real self then a fundamental change of the self.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 08 Oct 2018 #2
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

What is true change?

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Tue, 09 Oct 2018 #3
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
What is true change?

I have no idea what true change is, but I know that changing names is a very diverse way of humanity to pretend differently from what they realy are.

there is a Bible story to become an inheritance, the nuns and fathers take a different outfit besides another name, the pope also takes part in the same tradition and I have heard that it is no different with the buddhist monks, we have recently had the same attempts at Mr. Baghwan later Osho and if we look at the list of participants on the forum it is very likely that there are many who do not use their own name, even criminals use this phenomenon.

another group exchange their clothing, such as judges and lawyers, to create a so-called distinction between function and man

in short, it is flight behavior and as such it reveals the working of the ego as a continuation of the old.

The working of the brain is still the same although the content of what they think may differ.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 09 Oct 2018.

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Tue, 09 Oct 2018 #4
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
in short, it is flight behavior and as such it reveals the working of the ego as a continuation of the old.

Continuation of the old? That means the known. Then ending the known would be change?

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Wed, 10 Oct 2018 #5
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Continuation of the old? That means the known. Then ending the known would be change?

can we formulate it in this way, because that would mean that the known would have ended, is it not that its effect is being shut down?

What is visible is that the adopting of a new name, different clothing or other behavior fits into a very old tradition of deviding and is not an essential change.

What happens when you understand that these well-trodden paths are, is a different story, maybe a oppurtinity for something new?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 10 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 10 Oct 2018 #6
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
What happens when you understand that these well-trodden paths are, is a different story, maybe a oppurtinity for something new?

What do you mean here?

Do you mean to say here? If I pounce on the word 'path' that would mean having roots in the previous step which is the past & therefore not change.

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Thu, 11 Oct 2018 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
If I pounce on the word 'path' that would mean having roots in the previous step which is the past & therefore not change

The word "path" has no meaning

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

What happens when you understand that these well-trodden paths are, is a different story, maybe a oppurtinity for something new?

May be the word 'are' is not on its right place and should be between 'these' and 'well-trodden' but the whole sentence is pointing to "It's old crap ".

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 12 Oct 2018 #8
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
taking on another name , image and or clothing seems to me more a flight of your real self then a fundamental change of the self.

This is not change.

But what is fundamental change of the self?

Change would mean not the same, right? So is change & creativity connected? Because not the same would mean something new, right ?What is creativity?

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Sat, 13 Oct 2018 #9
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Change would mean not the same, right?

Superficially it seems so, but creativity is also used to present the same as change. To define change in the sense of what K. meant is impossible because in the same instance one make it into the known and that's precisely the working of the mind, so even what is called creativity is in this sense within a certain structure and as such not at all creative.

One can discover what is not change and/Or creative in that sense, That's all what one can do.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 13 Oct 2018.

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Tue, 16 Oct 2018 #10
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
To define change in the sense of what K. meant is impossible because in the same instance one make it into the known and that's precisely the working of the mind, so even what is called creativity is in this sense within a certain structure and as such not at all creative.

Cannot there be letting go constantly so that there is a certain newness?

Is making into the old inevitable? Is there no way out?

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #11
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1315 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Cannot there be letting go constantly so that there is a certain newness?

Is making into the old inevitable? Is there no way out?

Hello Jayaraj and Wim

This brings back Jayaraj's, question of whether the image making process can stop. For me the possible answer lies in the clarity with which I see this operating in myself. It stems obviously from our violent and dangerous past where creating a correct image of something or someone could mean life or death for the body. The recognition of the face of an enemy or a dangerous creature or situation etc. Now it has been 'carried over' into the psychological and it separates my friends from my enemies and that provides me with a sense of 'order'. It has become quite automatic. Now when I experiment with not bringing the old images forward say with someone that I have had 'bad' relations with and attempt to see them anew without the baggage of the past, what happens? There is fear. The negative image I have of the other is 'preferable' to no image at all. Why is that? I prefer to keep the 'old' because without my old images, memories, feelings of hurt and pleasure...without those, what would I be? Nothing? So I 'escape' from the present constantly by 'protecting' myself with the past. And it could only be, it seems to me, that this image-making could end is through the total understanding of seeing it and the fear underlying it in the moment. What do you say?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #12
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Well Dan yes it is understanding the image building process that is needed.

Now when you say when we think of letting go of the past about a bad experience we experience fear, it is thought that is speculating isn't it? It's not actual ending of the image.

Actually memory has made it possible for us to survive. Now it is built in the system that fire is damaging to the body. We cannot forget that.

Now is memory the image? Say someone insults you or me. Then what gets hurt? We obviously have to hear the remark. We hear it & discern it's meaning means it is already in memory.Otherwise we cannot function.Is not this discernment needed first for us to feel hurt? So is not hurt coming later when the remark is met by the image?

So I think it is the image we have to end. Memory of the incident will be there. Is that not right?

K was telling Professor Allan Anderson, 'can there be response without the emotional component?'(not the words he used please. I think it is in the 1st discussion of 18 discussions they had in 'A Wholly Different Way Of Living '.)

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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #13
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
So I think it is the image we have to end. Memory of the incident will be there. Is that not right?

And what is the clothing of the image ?
Is that not the conclusion that it is such or so instead of this was such or so? One carry it forward in the present and or future and not let stay it in the past.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 20 Oct 2018.

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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #14
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1315 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Now when you say when we think of letting go of the past about a bad experience we experience fear, it is thought that is speculating isn't it? It's not actual ending of the image.

Yes I'm recalling K.saying that with real love, their is no discrimination...that as I understand it is that the person or thing being met, is not met with an image from the past, or through the veil of 'naming'. The meeting is always fresh because the 'need' for the past image is not present. What I'm saying is that the 'self' being itself an image, can not see anything freshly (as if for the first time). The 'image-making machinery' is almost always in operation. The question is, can it stop or as K. has put it: can thought with its creation of 'time' end? That seems to me to be what our situation is mostly, if not all about.

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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #15
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1315 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
One carry it forward in the present and or future and not let stay it in the past.

Which is to say that like the elephant, we never forget. So is what is being proposed here by K., that someone can hurt me in the past and the memory of that hurt is etched into the brain and when I see that person responsible for that hurt or recall the incident of that hurt that it is possible to have the memory of the occurrence but absent of the feelings that it aroused at the time, namely being 'hurt' psychologically? Or let's say that the hurt was long ago and you have since decided that it is a 'good' thing to be forgiving...do you now create a brand new image of the person who hurt you and justify your feelings of 'forgiveness' towards this person saying that they "might have just been having a bad day when they hurt you" or "didn't know what they were doing" etc. My question is, is it necessary to create images (static pictures of the past) or can one meet each moment as it comes, with out attempting to 'hold on' to anything. That in my very limited understanding sounds like what 'love' is.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 20 Oct 2018.

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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #16
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1315 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Now when you say when we think of letting go of the past about a bad experience we experience fear, it is thought that is speculating isn't it? It's not actual ending of the image.

Right, the negative image is there and the experiment is to let go 'seeing' the person as you have seen them in the past and now to see them as if you are meeting them for the first time. Thought rebels against doing this. Thought intellectually agrees that it is 'good' to be 'loving' and 'forgiving' but prefers to keep the negative (and positive) images it has formed in the past unless it can see that it will get a 'greater reward' by going beyond them. Otherwise it is 'safer' to hold on to the past rather than to become 'nothing'. Hold on to what you have and 'make the best of it'. Keep the images... which give a sense of order and protection to the brain. Of course there is no order or security in dead images but until this is understood totally by thought/brain it will continue as it always has, to cling and find a false security in the 'past'. You can see a variation of this when you meet other people for the first time and how they wish to present an 'image' of themselves.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 20 Oct 2018.

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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #17
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Right. Agreed fully.

Now Dan is the image different from the memory of the incident?

That is, someone calls me or you stupid.Now we can have an emotional reaction to him next time. That is obviously caused by an image.Now that is clearly a block to relationship because the person won't be the same next time.

Now does ending of the remark mean erasing the memory of the remark made?

I feel memory of the remark or incident remains.What do you think?

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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #18
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
My question is, is it necessary to create images

That is the real point I feel.

Not that we first get hurt & find ways of getting round that. Is it possible not to get hurt in the first instance?

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Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #19
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1315 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Not that we first get hurt & find ways of getting round that. Is it possible not to get hurt in the first instance?

That is where 'listening' comes in...if there is attention at the moment the insult or hurt (or flattery) is being delivered, then there could be this 'space' where the words or even the 'look' could be seen and not reacted to in the usual manner. K. said at one point I believe, that when asked if he could sum up his 'teaching' in one word, what would it be?... "Attention" he said.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 21 Oct 2018.

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Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #20
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
K. said at one point I believe, that when asked if he could sum up his 'teaching' in one word, what would it be?... "Attention" he said.

I read somewhere that K. had a colleague on Brockwood who made the comment: "You have a nice business here!" and when the person in question had left the remark was posted "do not worry, there are always jalourse people" and K. reacted "do not reject him, do not separate him" Weeks later he came back with the comment " I have looked at it in depth, his remark is not correct! "

This from memory maybe not the exact words but the meaning is clear. The insult was seriously investigated and brought back to what it only was: " An incorrect remark and nothing more or less "

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sun, 21 Oct 2018.

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Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #21
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1315 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
This from memory maybe not the exact words but the meaning is clear. The insult was seriously investigated and brought back to what it only was: " An incorrect remark and nothing more or less "

It sounds from your description Wim, that K received the insult that he was running a 'spiritual racket', with the 'attention' that he spoke of as a possibility for all of us. But it takes a kind of 'presence' doesn't it, to hear the remark but not react to it defensively and immediately put the person delivering the insult into one's 'enemy column'. That what it sounds like happened here; that he asked himself " Is this a kind of racket?" and decided after looking into it, to his satisfaction, decided that it was not.

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Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #22
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Not that we first get hurt & find ways of getting round that. Is it possible not to get hurt in the first instance?

Hi Jayraj

I think we haven't interacted earlier. But me being more of a passive reader and some what reluctant and inactive participant where writing is concerned, can make out that your responses to fellow posters of the forum are mostly very well balanced , calm and gentle .... which might be the result of years of inquiring, exploring, and discovering about human consciousness - the main thrust of K teaching, according to me.

In the above statement I feel you have made a good point . Well if I remember well , I think in the book ' Beginnings of learning ' while having extensive and elaborate discussions with young students , K discusses this issue of ' getting hurt ' and answers the question also as to what is 'it ' that gets hurt ?

The ' image ' that one has or one forms in the course of ones life of oneself like : very intelligent , very knowledgeable , well versed in lot of things , talented in many fields etc ... and when one feels the other person is trying to cause damage or caused damage to that ' image ' of oneself ... One gets hurt .

Kindly correct me if I have quoted wrong .

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Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #23
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

My question is, is it necessary to create images

Wim Opdam wrote:
And what is the clothing of the image ?
Is that not the conclusion that it is such or so instead of this was such or so? One carry it forward in the present and or future and not let stay it in the past.

Hi Dan and Wim

One suggestion if I may ... rather than seeing each part of these aspects of ' self ' .... the image making, pattern forming ' , escaping from what is ' sticking or clinging to the ' identity ' .... all these aspects are but same sides of one coin ... ' self '

Now the question is can all these segments can be seen in oneself and discern from what is relevant to that which is irrelevant ? In other words can all aspects be seen in totality ? and come to terms with what ever findings one faces / understands ?

Hope the post is making sense . One more suggestion : in this aspect I found one book extremely helpful, ' Don't make a problem of anything ' in which k discusses at length of all the above mentioned issues with various close inner circle of people who stayed with him .

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Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #24
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
Kindly correct me if I have quoted wrong .

Hi Pavani,

Not that i think you are wrong but to me this seems only one aspect of the story. IS not also this aspect of time playing a role, by inspecting the truthfulness of the remark it doesn't matter how long it takes to see it for what it is 'a not correct remark Also not an image is made of the person who made this remark, he/she is not labelled as stupid, jealous or superficial only the remark is investigated as incorrect and nothing more and no reason to remembered any further..

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #25
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Pavani,

Thank you for your message. Nice to meet you here.

I am afraid I am not considered as a gentle person. But it's true I've been investigating what K said all my life. So there can be changes here & there.

Like Jack I also found it difficult to stand when posters picked on K. May be because I consider him to be very great. However now I think these things cannot be stopped. Like many other things K critics also will be there always.

If my understanding is correct you are right it is my image that I've built over the years that gets hurt when it is impinged.

So the question is can we end this image? Must we go on in conflict?

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Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #26
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Nice to meet you here too Jayraj

Well I too share similar feelings about K like reverence, awe, wonder in the initial stages of coming across his books and reading. Now after understanding him and his persona from various bios and personal accounts written by people, along with the above feelings, affection, and a sense of ' indebtedness ' if I can use that word have settled in.

Well when I had mentioned about the ' image' , and ' the process of getting hurt' ... per se I just repeated what I remembered reading from k texts. which happens to be a fact and speaking in general terms. Not to say that I was talking directly to you. Your post conveyed as if I was talking to you. If the intention was not, may be I had mistaken.

Well regarding the last part of your post ending of ' image making process ' may be its an on going process Jayraj , don't you think so ? and may be it boils down to the fact that how 'serious' and how ' important ' one perceives the utmost necessity of ending this whole process ....

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Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #27
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
Well regarding the last part of your post ending of ' image making process ' may be its an on going process Jayraj , don't you think so ? and may be it boils down to the fact that how 'serious' and how ' important ' one perceives the utmost necessity of ending this whole process ....

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Like Jack I also found it difficult to stand when posters picked on K. May be because I consider him to be very great. However now I think these things cannot be stopped. Like many other things K critics also will be there always.

Hi Pavani and Jayaraj,

It's also seen here that defending and holding is pointing to some image.

But is there an image when someone takes someone's words seriously?
"Please do not accept what I say, but investigate it, look into it!"
if someone who uses the art of a Socratic dialogue to twist those words in order to profane, is that serious? If someone defends something that is dear to him, is that serious?

can we determine that for someone else or is that only for 100% in yourself to investigate, eventually everything in ourselves is potentially present, but is that activated or not?

Is this research activity not the tool to not get a picture,
because someone does that seriously?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 #28
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
That is where 'listening' comes in...if there is attention at the moment the insult or hurt (or flattery) is being delivered, then there could be this 'space' where the words or even the 'look' could be seen and not reacted to in the usual manner.

Yes Dan. However is such attention possible? This full attention means the absence of an observer, isn't it?

Do you think this is directly possible?

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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 #29
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1241 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
However is such attention possible?
This full attention means the absence of an observer, isn't it?

Do you think this is directly possible?

I WOULD say: " stop thinking about the possibility and don't make a problem out of it,"

Understand what the QOTD pointed to:

Ojai, California | 2nd Public Talk 17th June, 1934

Everyone is caught up in suffering and conflict, but most people are unconscious of that conflict; they are merely seeking substitutions, solutions and escapes. Whereas if they cease seeking escapes and begin to question the environment which causes that conflict, then mind becomes acute, alive, intelligent. In that intensity mind becomes intelligence and therefore sees the full worth and significance of the environment which creates conflict.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 #30
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
It's also seen here that defending and holding is pointing to some image.

Wim Opdam wrote:
can we determine that for someone else or is that only for 100% in yourself to investigate, eventually everything in ourselves is potentially present, but is that activated or not?

Hi Wim

In the above parts of the post whatever I can make out is that you are referring to the exchange between me and Jayraj about K . and yes the onus is 100 % on oneself to investigate and I think as we all understand by now it's an on going process of ' listening and learning and exploring '

talking about ' images' and how that ' image ' making process in oneself hurts oneself and how if unchecked and un tackled .... can hamper ones understanding and moving on in ones life ... In my understanding K is certainly not saying one to become ' static or statue ' like and neither the implication is one turning into ' blank state ' whatever that may mean ...

Expressing how one feels about certain things or some body ... Does that come under the category of ' image making ' or carrying ' images ' ?

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