Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is the ground on which inner silence may come about?


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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #151
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Well, that assumes human beings are somehow outside of nature.

No, of course, humans are not outside of Nature. Maybe instead of "Nature" I should have said Universe. The Universe is coherent but the parts that aren't, homo sapiens for example, eventually destroy themselves or are destroyed because of the incoherency. Bohm defined "coherency" as being logical and consistent. And yes, homo sapiens are part of the Universe which doesn't infer, at all, that we can't destroy ourselves.

Obviously homo sapiens can't continue to exist as we are and have been. We are destroying our environment. Our life-support systems are under attack by our unrestrained greed and general stupidity.

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #152
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 774 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Obviously homo sapiens can't continue to exist as we are and have been. We are destroying our environment. Our life-support systems are under attack by our unrestrained greed and general stupidity.

Hi Jack and all. I don't think many people would disagree that "unrestrained greed" and "general stupidity" are two central factors behind the way we as human beings are treating each other and the planet we live on. Krishnamurti says, I understand, that the chaos in society and the world is a reflection of what is going on in ourselves. By observing what is going on in ourselves we can change at an individual level and this is the only way to bring about change on a wider scale. There seems to be a great deal of truth in this.

However, where does that leave us with trying to change society? Here in Spain, some people are campaigning to save our very good public health system. I think on a human level that it's very important to have a good public health system that is open to all citizens. Isn't it compassionate for a society to try to take care of everybody's health? Surely one can see the importance of bringing about change in ourselves but at the same time be active in bringing about social change. I have no idea what Krishnamurti would say about this.

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #153
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Krishnamurti says, I understand, that the chaos in society and the world is a reflection of what is going on in ourselves. By observing what is going on in ourselves we can change at an individual level and this is the only way to bring about change on a wider scale. There seems to be a great deal of truth in this.

I wish I could find the part of a dialogue between David Bohm and K where Bohm asks K,... will humanity change in time to save itself and the world? Essentially, the answer was no. We won't change in time. So Bohm, being Bohm, asked then why bother to change? K, and I am paraphrasing here, responded by saying because it is the right thing to do.

It seems apparent that humanity is getting closer and closer to destroying much of the world and inevitably ourselves. I mean look at what the United States did three years ago. With less than half of the voters voting for Trump he was never-the-less elected into office. The level of corruption that was required to put this utterly despicable human being into office is difficult to even calculate. But it happened. And then there is Putin in Russia who stays in power and more recently Netanyahu of Israel. Evil, destructive and corrupt human beings all. And they aren't the only ones, the only political leaders who are wholly corrupt.

Sean how can things change for the better when we have such corrupt leaders and when the dominate economic system is one wholly based on greed called capitalism?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 10 Apr 2019.

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #154
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
However, where does that leave us with trying to change society? Here in Spain, some people are campaigning to save our very good public health system. I think on a human level that it's very important to have a good public health system that is open to all citizens. Isn't it compassionate for a society to try to take care of everybody's health?

Health care is important, it's amazing that given the forces of greed and corruption here in the US, that we have anything at all! I think that working to preserve or better what you have in Spain, is also "the right thing to do".

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #155
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Change is an idea. Noone has changed in here. The ruthless remains ruthless even though he quotes krishnamurt and complains about the dictators. The fact is that we don't change. Krishnamurti asked us "why don't you change?" In answering that question one may find out why he doesn't change. Talking about change on the individual level or collective level without understanding the reason why we don't change is merely the activity of thought idolizing.

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #156
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 774 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Health care is important, it's amazing that given the forces of greed and corruption here in the US, that we have anything at all! I think that working to preserve or better what you have in Spain, is also "the right thing to do".

Hi Dan and all. I agree with you here Dan. The problem is that Krishnamurti often spoke against changing society and pointed out that changing ourselves is "the only revolution". But surely it's the right thing to do to resist the forces of greed to peacefully campaign to save a vital public service which is so important in so many people's lives.

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #157
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
The problem is that Krishnamurti often spoke against changing society and pointed out that changing ourselves is "the only revolution".

I don't see the problem Sean. I think that he was pointing out that a fundamental change can't take place in 'society' unless we ourselves are fundamentally changed. Because we are society. But I don't think that that implied that trying to bring some order into the chaos, into the brutal suffering that is going on in so many places, that that action is somehow 'prohibited', or of no value. Isn't it also that the studying of what K has said and written makes us more sensitive to the senselessness that is going on around us? The absurdness of the priorities?

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #158
Thumb_kr Ken D United States 34 posts in this forum Offline

"In a society which is more or less free, where there are not so many rules, because nobody believes in rules, where everything is permitted, there I play." Krishnamurti

Saanen 1st Conversation with Swami Venkatesananda 25th July 1969

"It has occurred to me, brother, that wisdom may not be the end of everything. Goodness and kindliness are, perhaps, beyond wisdom." James Stephens

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #159
Thumb_kr Ken D United States 34 posts in this forum Offline

"So the reformer has not solved the problem and never will. He is concerned with the reformation of society to produce the right individual, but the right individual is not the product of society, he is totally free of society. He dominates, breaks through the conditioning of his environment; he acts upon society, society does not act upon him." Krishnamurti

Madras 1st Public Talk 22nd October 1958

This, of course, is nonsense, because nobody is ever totally free of society. In fact, without society, who would have raised, fed, and provided for Krishnamurti when he was a child, except his immediate family - who were also a part of and a product of society?

"It has occurred to me, brother, that wisdom may not be the end of everything. Goodness and kindliness are, perhaps, beyond wisdom." James Stephens

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #160
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
This, of course, is nonsense, because nobody is ever totally free of society. In fact, without society, who would have raised, fed, and provided for Krishnamurti when he was a child, except his immediate family - who were also a part of and a product of society?

Wait Ken. Do you think that K spoke just to hear himself speak? Physically yes we all are dependent on the social network we live in to provide the necessities we need to live. We need food, clothes and shelter at the very minimum. Most of us need human contact; some social interchange.

It seems clear, to me, that K was referring to the conditioning of the individual by one's society. The conditioning of the dominate religion, economic system, political system and so on. We are speaking of the psychological conditioning of society that keeps us separated and in conflict with other nations, religions and economic systems. Even our pattern of thinking is conditioned by the society we live in.

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #161
Thumb_kr Ken D United States 34 posts in this forum Offline

Well, if Krishnamurti was so insistent upon standing apart from the tyranny of the surrounding culture, why did he refrain from giving any public talks for the duration of the Second World War?

"It has occurred to me, brother, that wisdom may not be the end of everything. Goodness and kindliness are, perhaps, beyond wisdom." James Stephens

This post was last updated by Ken D Thu, 11 Apr 2019.

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #162
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
why did he refrain from giving any public talks for the duration of the Second World War?

Could it be that he didn't like onions in his soup.:=)

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #163
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Well, if Krishnamurti was so insistent upon standing apart from the tyranny of the surrounding culture, why did he refrain from giving any public talks for the duration of the Second World War?

I assume you're joking so I won't bother to post the obvious answer to your above question.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 12 Apr 2019.

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Fri, 12 Apr 2019 #164
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

It is very odd that most people in this forum are hesitant to write something in this mediocre site. They are most likely hesitant because they don't want to be analyzed and be attacked by only one person in this site and we all know who. A vicious dog who is trained like a police dog to attack on demand. That is why no newcomer comments In this mediocre forum.

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Fri, 12 Apr 2019 #165
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

It is even more odd that we really don't relate to each other in this very mediocre site with mediocre members.
:=)

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Sun, 14 Apr 2019 #166
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 774 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I don't see the problem Sean. I think that he was pointing out that a fundamental change can't take place in 'society' unless we ourselves are fundamentally changed. Because we are society. But I don't think that that implied that trying to bring some order into the chaos, into the brutal suffering that is going on in so many places, that that action is somehow 'prohibited', or of no value. Isn't it also that the studying of what K has said and written makes us more sensitive to the senselessness that is going on around us? The absurdness of the priorities?

Hi Dan. Yes, I agree with everything you say here. Whether we like it or not, we live in society and so decisions have to be made about how that society is organised. We can spend money raised from taxes on weapons or on public health systems. I think it's important that money is spent constructively rather than destructively. So while I agree that change on a personal level is absolutely crucial, I don't think we can ignore what is going on around us in a wider sense and sometimes it is important to campaign peacefully for changes to the society we live in.

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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #167
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1330 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Could it be that he didn't like onions in his soup.:=)

One Self wrote:
It is even more odd that we really don't relate to each other in this very mediocre site with mediocre members.
:=)

And this is from the person who took up 30 % of the impute only of this topic.

Well, seeing the time, quantity and quality you deliver, the level of this forum appears mainly your responsibility

So if you would acting responsible you could leave this forum and give it a change to change the level instead of staying mediocre.

But because you are the person that you prove to be, you cannot do that.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #168
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen and Dan McDermott:

I hope you don't mind if I make a comment about the two posts above?

I have been reading Dr Bohm's book THOUGHT AS A SYSTEM which is an often difficult to follow and a very in depth discussion of thought and how thought works. Bohm brings out how we all tend to conceptualize things, many of the things, we have heard or read from K, for example, or elsewhere. Bohm goes on to point out how these concepts become rigid blocks of knowledge or "truths" that become part of our thought, our memory, and basically our self our center. Essentially, it becomes part of our conditioning, perhaps our new conditioning.

What I am trying to say, and maybe I'm not being clear, is that unless we are seeing change as if for the first time then it is something we have conceptualized into a neat little package. Am I being clear at all? Have either of you read Bohm's book which might help if you have.

You do understand that I am not disagreeing with what either of you said about change but rather I am trying to ask or point out; what do we do with the knowledge or understanding that we acquire? Does it become just another part of our conditioning? Another piece of knowledge that comes automatically, that we repeat reflexively but we are no longer attentive to it, the knowledge, is no longer in the present and fresh and new?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 17 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #169
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Another piece of knowledge that comes automatically, that we repeat reflexively but we are no longer attentive to it, the knowledge, is no longer in the present and fresh and new?

Yes that is the way it works it seems...K.'s suggestion was to "stay with the numbness" as I recall is the way he put it. To realize that there is this 'numbness' is a big deal!

Jack Pine wrote:
unless we are seeing change as if for the first time then it is something we have conceptualized into a neat little package.

Again that is a good description of how thought works and we can also conceptualize this idea of seeing things "as if for the first time" and 'compare' how we actually see, with this idea of: if we didn't "conceptualize into little neat packages" (or not so neat) that we 'would' see differently: fresh and new i.e. But it is about 'seeing' what is going on now, how I am now, how I am acting now that is the only importance, is it not?... When I face the fact of what I am with a judgement of how I might or should be, that is the 'trap' of time, isn't it? It is another way thought escapes from the 'fact' of what is. The 'idea' of what I should be and then the 'action' to bring it about is the cause of conflict. That space between the seeing and the doing.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 15 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #170
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
And this is from the person who took up 30 % of the impute only of this topic.

I have noticed what you do. When you see yourself incapable in front of a fact you start making an image of the writer of that fact and copy and copy and copy till death clears it eventually. You choose to be who you are. Aggressive and the aggression expresses itself in ganging up with similar minded in here. That is the mediocre mind. A mind with no creativity of it's own and depends on other members of the little gang for support..

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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #171
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Dan I think you see what I'm trying to point out. I am also trying to point out that not only are we conceptualizing, idealizing what K is pointing out by internalizing the information but also there is something else. Maybe many "somethings" else.

K tends to be negative. He speaks of what things are not which tends to empty the mind of previous concepts, beliefs, habits and so on. The response most of us seem to have to this is to fill the mind with a response to this "wiping away of thought" by wanting to analyze it, discuss it, philosophize it. I think we are conditioned to response this way. In school we were tested on what we knew and not on what had been dissolved, removed from our minds, as a result of understanding and maybe even insight.

When it is pointed out, for example, that we are conditioned to accept nationalization, and organized belief in a "higher being", deity, religion, can we stay with just that without immediately imagining ourselves free of these feelings or some such thinking? Can we just stay with the fact of conditioning without any response of thought to it whatsoever? As I said, that seems to be so difficult because we are so habituated, conditioned, to respond, to discuss, to agree or disagree, to imagine a state of not being nationalistic or religious. Do you know what I'm trying to point out?

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #172
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Can we just stay with the fact of conditioning without any response of thought to it whatsoever? As I said, that seems to be so difficult because we are so habituated, conditioned, to respond, to discuss, to agree or disagree, to imagine a state of not being nationalistic or religious.

With permission, 'I' read your words in this way (correct me): Can 'psychological thought', when realizing that it is totally conditioned, can it become aware and stay with that fact... without any movement...can it stop? That is really the only question as I see it now Jack...but that is our own question that each of us may or may not bring into our own 'meditation' as we understand it...what is discovered there, I think, is what we should 'discuss'/share to the best of our ability. 'Silence' here may just be another lie, a desire to hold on to some thing that was found, to not 'expose' it...'holding on' though, is part of the conditioning, isn't it? There is nothing to hold on to. Nothing to lose....And nothing to gain.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #173
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Dan, I think what I am trying to say is can thought be observed without there being any reaction to it? Can someone point out, express, that the human mind is conditioned without there being any reaction to that fact? Just observation of the fact of conditioning whatever it may be, nationalism, religion...………?

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #174
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1330 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
I have noticed what you do. When you see yourself incapable in front of a fact you start making an image of the writer of that fact and copy and copy and copy till death clears it eventually. You choose to be who you are. Aggressive and the aggression expresses itself in ganging up with similar minded in here. That is the mediocre mind. A mind with no creativity of it's own and depends on other members of the little gang for support.

yes, a truly perfect description of what One Self does.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 16 Apr 2019.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #175
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Can someone point out, express, that the human mind is conditioned without there being any reaction to that fact?

In considering your question; why would you believe someone who says such a thing? Do you just 'accept' it as truth because the person that is saying that has a certain charisma, a 'following', a reputation, etc. The people around you are going to church and flying their flags and this person comes along and says that that is all just "conditioning"...you listen to him and it makes 'sense' because you see that the world of man seems to be in such a divided mess. You don't reject what he says but you can't 'know' if what he is saying is true, you have no way of ascertaining that because, according to him, you are 'totally conditioned'. So unless you are just going to fall into the comfortable trap of becoming a 'follower', you have to go into it for yourself, 'tear it apart', doubt, question...He may be right or he might just be a 'freak'. So bearing in mind that you may be totally conditioned, you have work out how you will still find the truth or the falseness of it in spite of this 'conditioning', right?. With no 'guide'. With no 'path'. With no 'guarantee' of anything. But I do see clearly, the folly of becoming a 'believer'. It occurs to me that yesterday's understanding is no understanding at all.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 16 Apr 2019.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #176
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam the copy-cat wrote:
yes, a truly perfect description of what One Self does.

So you just copy me and copy Krishnamurti without any understanding because you are incapable of seeing your self. Get a life dude.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #177
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Dan, I have tried to answer you last post twice and both times it was rejected by the site. Apparently if you spend too much time on here and don't post it wipes out what you eventually try to post.

Dan your response to my post 173 is just a bunch of assumptions and conclusions that have little or no basis in fact. I didn't write or say what you suggested I was saying or thinking. I merely wrote, "don't react" to what K points out. That's what we all have been conditioned to do with information we are given. Try reading 173 again without coming to all of the unwarranted, unsubstantiated conclusions. Time to start my day. Have a pleasant day.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 16 Apr 2019.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #178
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

I read jack and Dan comments ,I agree with Dan. One has to investigate his or her conditioning for being false or true. If you let your conditioning do it's things without any reaction then it may be too late and you may end up in prison for murdering someone who has different belief than yours.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #179
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
In considering your question; why would you believe someone who says such a thing?

Look at the question I asked and you quoted and then look at what you posted as part of your response above. Where is the connection between the two? I said don't react. Not accept or believe.

And can't you readily see that we have been conditioned to accept, to believe in "god" and "country"? That was obvious to me before I ever heard of K or Bohm.

Dan McDermott wrote:
because you see that the world of man seems to be in such a divided mess.

"Seems" to be such a divided mess? The world is divided up into nationalities and organized religion, races and more which is obvious to even the casual observer. That is not an illusion or one that you have to have someone else point out to you. It's an obvious fact.

Dan McDermott wrote:
He may be right or he might just be a 'freak'. So bearing in mind that you may be totally conditioned, you have work out how you will still find the truth or the falseness of it in spite of this 'conditioning', right?.

No. And aren't you falling into the same old trap of thinking there is a "you" apart from conditioning? Will "you" ever know the truth? Same arguments, Dan, that have appeared here over and over again. I'm not interested in recovering that ground. Dan, you can think or do what you want. I was trying to point something out I thought was interesting. I'm not going to argue about it.

Here's today's quote which you may find relevant:

Group Discussion 13th April, 1948 | Mumbai, India

Question: What is it that destroys security?
Krishnamurti: Nationalism destroys physical security. It brings about war. Everything we do psychologically is against peace.
Question: When we jump out of our state of contradiction, will there be honest thinking? Or, must we isolate ourselves?
Krishnamurti: Are you aware that you are in contradiction? You cannot call yourself a nationalist and at the same time talk of peace. When property is used for self-expansion, it leads to hatred. It is a contradiction. When you have particular beliefs, can you maintain real brotherhood?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 17 Apr 2019.

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Wed, 17 Apr 2019 #180
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1330 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Get a life dude.

not a shadow of doubt I live and by the way, whatever you call me.

it is because of a lack of arguments that people abuse.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 17 Apr 2019.

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