Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Reza Ganjavi interview with Dr. Scott Forbes


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Mon, 20 Jan 2020 #1
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

This interview with Scott Forbes is a little over 1 hour 14 minutes long. I'm sure anyone interested in Krishnamurti and the teachings will find it very interesting. You can watch the interview here.

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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

I'm not even 10 minutes into the video and I have already learned that K owned and "loved" two expensive pocket watches made by Patek Philippe, one steel and one gold. They, by the way, make the most expensive watches in the world, costing thousands to even millions of dollars. And K was served breakfast in bed every morning with classical music records playing.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 21 Jan 2020.

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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 #3
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3176 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, the watches were gifts, as was the Mercedes and the tailor made suits.

Let it Be

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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 #4
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5795 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
And K was served breakfast in bed every morning with classical music records playing.

Should we believe everything we read? Maybe he did have breakfast in bed. But also, when K was staying at Pine Cottage in Ojai, in the mornings he often walked up Horn Canyon Trail which was accessed from Pine Cottage by a path a quarter mile long or so. Horn Canyon Trail is on the edge of Thatcher School (an expensive private school). Coincidently, my wife and I walked part way up Horn Canyon Trail (which goes up into the Topa Topa mountains, yesterday. It's not the most difficult trail in the area but provides a pretty good workout.

I provided this information to indicate that K didn't just lay around every morning. He was somewhat of a fanatic about staying physically fit. Also, in addition to the morning walks, on many afternoons there would be K with a group of people striding along McAndrew Road where Arya Vihara and Pine Cottage are located at the East End of the Ojai Valley.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 21 Jan 2020.

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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 #5
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5795 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Yes, the watches were gifts, as was the Mercedes and the tailor made suits.

Mary Zimbalist provided the Mercedes. They were actually hers. He bought his suits at Huntsman's in London, England.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 24 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 22 Jan 2020 #6
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

I don't understand why having breakfast in bed should be seen as negative in any way. It's a personal preference that anyone might have. If the breakfast is made by your loved ones, it's something that normal people may enjoy and not be confined to highly privileged members of society. As for Phillipe Patek watches, Mercedes cars and suits bought from Huntsman's in Saville Row, these are indeed luxury items. Krishnamurti seemingly liked beautifully made, stylish things. However, he certainly wasn't a snob and did not see these things as status symbols in any way. He was able to enjoy the excellence of beautifully made things but had no attachment to these objects. I don't see a problem with that.

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Wed, 22 Jan 2020 #7
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

Unfortunately comunism has not died in this country . It is comunism way of thinking and aggression that is destructive not the wealth .

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Wed, 22 Jan 2020 #8
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
As for Phillipe Patek watches, Mercedes cars and suits bought from Huntsman's in Saville Row, these are indeed luxury items.

-

Krishnamurti, Ojai 7th Public Talk 11th July, 1953:
It seems to me that it is one of the most difficult things to live simply.

My God, yes. Can you imagine using a Timex?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 22 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 22 Jan 2020 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3176 posts in this forum Offline

But these were gifts (or as Jack pointed out, the Mercedes didn't belong to K)....from people who could well afford to give them, as far as I know.

Let it Be

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Wed, 22 Jan 2020 #10
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But these were gifts...

If someone gave me an expensive watch or car, I'd sell it and just live simply off the money. Wouldn't you? And we're not even setting an example for anyone.

I can understand having an expensive tool. Like if you're a haircutter, you could reasonably want scissors that cost hundreds of dollars. I don't want expensive scissors. But I can see how they could benefit a haircutter.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 22 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 22 Jan 2020 #11
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

Now the jealousy is aimed at poor krishnamurti who spent all of his life to free man from the bondage of thought. Thought or comparison is indeed futile and leads to jealousy and hate.

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Wed, 22 Jan 2020 #12
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 159 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
If someone gave me an expensive watch or car, I'd sell it and just live simply off the money. Wouldn't you? And we're not even setting an example for anyone.

Is context important? Or are our ideals absolutes?

Look, see, let go

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Wed, 22 Jan 2020 #13
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

It was the generous support of krishnamurti's friends that allowed us to benefit from the teachings today. Jealousy at any level is evil and destructive . Jealousy is encouraged by the parents and the educators. So to free oneself from this evil conditioning one has to discuss it and neither accept or deny it. Not to say jealousy is human nature and so on, that is justification witch has no meaning or use.
These are facts... The world is getting very close to end and we discuss jokes..

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 22 Jan 2020.

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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 #14
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

jealous
Also found in: Thesaurus, Medical, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
jeal·ous (j?l??s)
adj.
1. Fearful or wary of losing one's position or situation to someone else, especially in a sexual relationship: Her new boyfriend was jealous of her male friends.
2. Envious or resentful of the good fortune or achievements of another: I felt jealous when my coworker got a promotion. See Usage Note below.
3. Having to do with or arising from feelings of apprehension, bitterness, or envy: jealous thoughts.
4. Vigilant in guarding something: We are jealous of our good name.
5. Intolerant of disloyalty or infidelity; autocratic: a jealous god.
[Middle English jelous, from Old French gelos, gelous, from Vulgar Latin *z?l?sus, zealous, solicitous, from Late Latin z?lus, zeal; see

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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 #15
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

One interesting thing that Scott Forbes said in the interview was that apart from K himself, the person who came closest to actually living the teachings was Mary Zimbalist. I suppose this shouldn't really be surprising as she was the person closest to K for many years and this proximity must have had a strong impact on her. Scott Forbes also credited Mary Z as having liberated K from Rajagopal, and that this allowed the teachings to become more fully developed. I need to watch that section again but these two points struck me as important. Any thoughts on this?

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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 #16
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1404 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Scott Forbes also credited Mary Z as having liberated K from Rajagopal, and that this allowed the teachings to become more fully developed. I need to watch that section again but these two points struck me as important. Any thoughts on this?

Hi Sean

when I saw this video a few years ago, I wondered why Krishnaji didn't say goodbye to the Rajagopals much earlier.

Was he unable to confront?

another question is: to what extent did Rajagopal ever distance himself from theosophy? He later joined again.!

Then it dawned on me that he still asked on his deathbed: "Did they have something heard?" I think leaving the opening open ...still having compassion ...

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5795 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
. Scott Forbes also credited Mary Z as having liberated K from Rajagopal,

Sean, two benefactors of K, Theo and Erna Lilliefelt, were crucial in helping K remove Rajagopal from having almost complete control of editing and publishing K's talks. Rajagopal and his wife Rosalind dominated and K and pretty much controlled his physical life.

The Lilliefelt's lived in the Ojai Valley and became very much involved with K and his works.

Mary Z certainly played a part but the Lilliefelts were the moving force that filed the law suits and eventually vanquished Rajagopal. All of this is well documented in the biographies and in Mary Z's book.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 24 Jan 2020.

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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 #18
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

In the video, Scott Forbes is asked how he got close to K. And he says it was a few things. One thing was that he first encountered K at a live talk before he had ever read any K books. That was unusual and K found it intriguing. Then he said he fixed things, like the synchronization of the expensive watches and the video equipment to record K's talks and interactions. He acts humble and says he wasn't particularly worthy to be close to K. But clearly he wanted to be close. He sits with K during classical music breakfast in bed. He does early morning yoga and pranayama with K despite "hating yoga" but loving doing anything with K. And he questions if K was human like you and I are. So obviously he idolized K.

He says that K asked Mary Zimbalist if she could be truly free of K and she said yes. But then Mary Z spends the rest of her life completely dedicated and devoted to K, meticulously keeping diaries of every detail of his daily life, organizing matters for him, running interference as to who could see him. And Forbes was obviously devoted to K, too. I don't know if he had any illusions about being free of him.

So here we have K, who rejected gurus, surrounded by devotees, do we not?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 23 Jan 2020.

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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 #19
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

In the video, Forbes also says that Mary Zimbalist was in constant pain. She had received an overdose of radiation in an early cancer treatment of her leg that had burnt away a lot of tissue. Once she woke up completely shocked, because momentarily she was without pain.

Compare this to K and his recurrent pain of "the process."

Both suffered physically. Physical pain, which obviously most of us don't want, nevertheless has a way of connecting a person to the present, to the now. Either that or else it encourages escapism or drugs. But if you don't do drugs, and K scrupulously avoided even chocolate for its slight caffeine, and you don't escape, then pain returns you to the moment.

This becomes clear to someone who does cross legged meditation. No matter how flexible you are, remain utterly still sitting cross legged and there will be a degree of discomfort. The Buddha way is the middle way: too much agony is no good, just unnecessary distraction and masochism. Too little is also no good, too much comfort, likelihood of falling asleep or into thought indulgence. A certain degree of low level physical pain: awareness here and now.

I'm not saying physical pain is necessary or a method. Please don't harm yourself. But there is something to attention being physically embodied.

Also, low level physical pain can also make you care. Life isn't just a joke. It can make you empathetic to others, caring for their pains and difficulties. Of course, it is not at all guaranteed to do any of this and may do the opposite.

Another Buddhist thing, which may be related, is that we cannot escape physical pain in this life, but that we can be free of the mental suffering that we add on top of the physical. So when K discusses "pain" he quickly dispenses with the physical as a "nerve" matter and goes deeply into psychological pain and how to be free of it.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 23 Jan 2020.

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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 #20
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

K:
HOW ODDLY SIMILAR are gossip and worry. They are both the outcome of a restless mind. A restless mind must have a changing variety of expressions and actions, it must be occupied; it must have ever increasing sensations, passing interests, and gossip contains the elements of all these.

Gossip is the very antithesis of intensity and earnestness. To talk about another, pleasantly or viciously, is an escape from oneself, and escape is the cause of restlessness. Escape in its very nature is restless. Concern over the affairs of others seems to occupy most people, and this concern shows itself in the reading of innumerable magazines and newspapers with their gossip columns, their accounts of murders, divorces and so on.

As we are concerned with what others think of us, so we are anxious to know all about them; and from this arise the crude and subtle forms of snobbishness and the worship of authority. Thus we become more and more externalized and inwardly empty. The more externalized we are, the more sensations and distractions there must be, and this gives rise to a mind that is never quiet, that is not capable of deep search and discovery.

Gossip is an expression of a restless mind; but merely to be silent does not indicate a tranquil mind, Tranquillity does not come into being with abstinence or denial; it comes with the understanding of what is. To understand what is needs swift awareness, for what is is not static.

If we did not worry, most of us would feel that we were not alive; to be struggling with a problem is for the majority of us an indication of existence. We cannot imagine life without a problem; and the more we are occupied with a problem, the more alert we think we are. The constant tension over a problem which thought itself has created only dulls the mind, making it insensitive and weary.

Why is there the ceaseless preoccupation with a problem? Will worry resolve the problem? Or does the answer to the problem come when the mind is quiet? But for most people, a quiet mind is a rather fearsome thing; they are afraid to be quiet, for heaven knows what they may discover in themselves, and worry is a preventive. A mind that is afraid to discover must ever be on the defensive, and restlessness is its defence.

Through constant strain, through habit and the influence of circumstances, the conscious layers of the mind have become agitated and restless Modern existence encourages this superficial activity and distraction, which is another form of self-defence. Defence is resistance, which prevents understanding.

Worry, like gossip, has the semblance of intensity and seriousness; but if one observes more closely one will see that it arises from attraction and not earnestness. Attraction is ever changing, and that is why the objects of worry and gossip change. Change is merely modified continuity. Gossip and worry can come to an end only when the restlessness of the mind is understood. Mere abstinence, control or discipline will not bring about tranquillity, but only dull the mind, making it insensitive and confined.

Curiosity is not the way of understanding. Understanding comes with self-knowledge. He who suffers is not curious; and mere curiosity, with its speculative overtones, is a hindrance to self-knowledge. Speculation, like curiosity, is an indication of restlessness; and a restless mind, however gifted, destroys understanding and happiness.

https://www.jkrishnamurti.org/content/series-i-...

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #21
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

K: Don't listen to anybody saying anything about anybody else.

(That includes Mary, Michel and so on)

This post was last updated by One Self Fri, 24 Jan 2020.

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #22
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

It seems like Mary and Michael or this fat guy have no understanding of the teachings . It is the teachings that is important not who krishnamurti was according to them. All they did is create a fictitious image of krishnamurti which is essentially against what krishnamurti taught all of his life.

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #23
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

Having no image was what krishnamurti taught us . He didn't taught us (us the serious thikers) to have an image about him and imitate what he did. So all these talks about krishnamurti is anti-teachings if you know what I mean?

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #24
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D quoted from Mary Z's book:
But why wasn’t he protected?

Obviously, K wasn't protected. It was an unfounded belief. That's right, a belief. It was made up, Theosophical nonsense. It is fortunate that he wasn't, by and large, harmed by anyone. But I don't believe he was protected. The Theosophists who raised him told him he was. He said he was. He believed it. Others around him believed it. And apparently he believed drawing circles protected him, too.

Obviously, it was wrong of Rosalind Rajagopal to have used physical violence on K, if she did. Perhaps she was jealous when she found out that K had had sex with Nandini Mehta. I don't know. But there's no excuse for such violence.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 24 Jan 2020.

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #25
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

If someone hit you on your head with a hammer you would most likely get a concussion and lose consciousness or die. Hitting someone with a hammer in front of a witness is assault with a deadly weapon, which is a felony in this country.

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #26
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

Nice to see you back here Wim! Hope you are keeping well. Jack, thanks for pointing out what the Lilliefelts did for K.

Idiot?, I know you feel that K's love of certain luxury items was contradictory to some things he said. Personally, I feel there is always a danger of living in a bubble and being cut off from reality if you are surrounded by great wealth and wealthy people all the time. K spent a lot of time in California, the UK and India but I don't think he often visited the Watts neighbourhood of southern L.A., Maryhill in Glasgow or Dharavi in Mumbai. These are places which are far removed from the opulent world K lived in. However, the crucial thing for me is that K could see through all the nonsense that goes with social status and wealth. If he met a rich banker or a cleaner he would see the human being rather than the image that goes with these jobs. Seeing the human being, he would treat everybody with the respect that they deserve. For me, this is the really important thing.

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #27
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5795 posts in this forum Offline

For those of you who can read, which is nearly all of you, K strongly requested that Mary Lutyens write his biography and that Mary Zimbalist keep daily notes of what it was like to be with him.

According to what Mrs. Zimbalist wrote in her memoirs of K she found taking notes to be very arduous sometimes. But she, nevertheless, honored K's request.

There seems to be misunderstandings and baseless opinions appearing on this forum from time to time (usually from a single source) that one feels compelled to expose and dismiss the more ridiculous ones. K wanted us to read what, at least certain people, had to say about him. I found the two Marys accounts of K to be very interesting. They made K seem to be more of a regular person and less of a insulated "spiritual leader".

On the other hand, some who knew K have written books, like David Moody and Scott Forbes, which I haven't read and have no intention of reading.

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #28
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1630 posts in this forum Offline

Those who seek authority create an image of Krishnamurti and stagnate there . It is like cancer , nobody can do anything for them because they essentially worship their own image.

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #29
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Idiot?, I know you feel that K's love of certain luxury items was contradictory to some things he said.

I just find it puzzling. No matter how rich I was or how much wealthy people gave me things, I would never have luxury watches or suits. I just wouldn't. I have zero interest in that.

Sean Hen wrote:
I don't think he often visited the Watts neighbourhood of southern L.A., Maryhill in Glasgow or Dharavi in Mumbai.

Actually, in his writings and talks he does describe very poor people, their struggles, and how we often look away from them or don't take their plight seriously enough. He would see them first hand sometimes on his walks.

Sean Hen wrote:
If he met a rich banker or a cleaner he would see the human being rather than the image that goes with these jobs. Seeing the human being, he would treat everybody with the respect that they deserve.

He certainly spoke about the importance of treating everyone with respect. And I strongly agree with that. Did he practice what he preached? I think he often did. But sometimes he was quite harsh with people, too.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 24 Jan 2020.

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 #30
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Idiot?, I know you feel that K's love of certain luxury items was contradictory to some things he said.

I just find it puzzling. No matter how rich I was or how much rich people gave me things, I would never have luxury watches or suits. I just wouldn't. I have zero interest in that.

Sean Hen wrote:
I don't think he often visited the Watts neighbourhood of southern L.A., Maryhill in Glasgow or Dharavi in Mumbai.

Actually, in his writings and talks he does describe very poor people, their struggles, and how we often look away from them or don't take their plight seriously enough. He saw them sometimes on his walks.

Sean Hen wrote:
If he met a rich banker or a cleaner he would see the human being rather than the image that goes with these jobs. Seeing the human being, he would treat everybody with the respect that they deserve.

He certainly spoke about the importance of treating everyone with respect. And I strongly agree with that. Did he practice what he preached? I think he often did. But sometimes he was quite harsh with people, too.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 28 Jan 2020.

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