Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is religion? - QOTD


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Fri, 14 Jun 2019 #61
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5098 posts in this forum Offline

Here is a recent Daily Quote on religion, what is a religious man:

The religious man

What is the state of the mind which says, “I do not know whether there is God, whether there is love,” that is, when there is no response of memory? Please don’t immediately answer the question to yourselves because if you do, your answer will be merely the recognition of what you think it should or should not be. If you say, “It is a state of negation,” you are comparing it with something that you already know; therefore, that state in which you say, “I do not know” is nonexistent...

So the mind that is capable of saying, “I do not know,” is in the only state in which anything can be discovered. But the man who says, “I know,” the man you has studied infinitely the varieties of human experience and whose mind is burdened with information, with encyclopedic knowledge, can he ever experience something which is not to be accumulated? He will find it extremely hard. When the mind totally puts aside all the knowledge that it has acquired, when for it there are no Buddhas, no Christs, no Masters, no teachers, no religions, no quotations; when the mind is completely alone, uncontaminated, which means that the movement of the known has come to an end—it is only then that there is a possibility of a tremendous revolution, a fundamental change. ... The religious man is he who does not belong to any religion, to any nation, to any race, who is inwardly completely alone, in a state of not-knowing, and for him the blessing of the sacred comes into being.

The Book of Life, December 19, HarperSanFrancisco, 1995

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Fri, 14 Jun 2019 #62
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5098 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
A religious person is one who would give his life for it, expecting no reward.

Give his life for what, Jose?

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Fri, 14 Jun 2019 #63
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5098 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote #34 :
There is a static-ness about this image that can become a 'stumbling block' (a conditioning?) I think, to simply moving with one's every thought.

There is a static-ness about every image that is formed, is there not? That is the nature of images, and therein lies the problem with images. But all statements are not necessarily images, they may point to something that is so, that is true.

Yes, as soon as one finds oneself trying to accomplish something, psychologically, that something must be an image.

Is there such a thing as stepping out of the stream of consciousness? I find what you say very interesting, Dan:

Dan McDermott wrote #34 :
The 'moving with' is the 'stepping out', isn't it?. It has no end. It gets no result. There is the 'losing it' and the 'picking it up'. There is no 'getting better' at it. To see thought as a flowing river where to 'do' anything other than to watch its flow is to 'impede' it, is a beautiful image

Can we say that to step out of the stream is really to step out of oneself, as oneself IS the stream? And when one is "moving with" the stream, there is no me, no self, to think himself separate from the stream. There is only the stream, and so no me. I am feeling this now.

Is this what you meant, Dan?

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Fri, 14 Jun 2019 #64
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5098 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
We had to assess others 'looks' from childhood to tell the friends from the foes. For survival. We had to learn to navigate the world without the animals wired in info. Humans are devious. To see through the traps they might be setting for us meant that we had to be clever, shrewd, or we would be exploited or worse. So it's not a surprise that when we see someone or something that there is already an 'image' there by which we can assess what or who is in front of us? That's the 'why' of it, the image forming mechanism, isn't it?

That sounds reasonable. But why do we stick to this old brain style thinking?

This is a fundamental question, isn't it? The old ways of thinking, acting, being, even if they were appropriate once, are no longer so, they are threatening to destroy us and the planet. But we stick to them. Sitting there as I described at the cafe, there is no reason to form a constant stream of images about everyone and everything I "see", is there? I am no safer because of it.

The image forming is the activity of the self, isn't it? Just "seeing" the world around me is not. Seeing does not strengthen or give duration to the self, does it? And that may be its importance.

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Fri, 14 Jun 2019 #65
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5098 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So we latch on to a more comforting thought....of God on Heaven or whatever.

But, as I described above, it doesn't work, does it? Why do we keep pursuing things that don't work?

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

So we latch on to a more comforting thought....of God on Heaven or whatever.
But, as I described above, it doesn't work, does it? Why do we keep pursuing things that don't work?

But comforting thoughts DO work....at least somewhat...don’t they? We have a neighbor who is a devout Catholic who prays to a statue of Jesus. I’m sure he gets some kind of temporary solace from it. And the idea of karma that so many seem to believe in. It does give some relief or comfort to many. I was raised a Jew and the Jews have their images too. I’m amazed at the strength of these absurd (to my mind) images that they cling to....not driving on the Sabbath and other absurd prohibitions....covering their heads with yarmulkes etc.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 15 Jun 2019.

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #67
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1310 posts in this forum Offline

Yes I'm not getting what Clive says when he says it doesn't work...it's working for everyone. Diversions, entertainment, religious devotion, new-age teachings, sex, transcendental meditation, internet, reading all the 'sacred' books, sports, ambition, consumerism, drugs, fashion, music, current events ...?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 15 Jun 2019.

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
it's working for everyone. Diversions, entertainment, religious devotion,

Yes. They’re an escape from the confusion and insecurity caused, in the first place, by images, beliefs, conclusions, and ideals.

Let it Be

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #69
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1310 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
insecurity caused, in the first place, by images, beliefs, conclusions, and ideals.

"First place" goes way back...how do you see it as having happened?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 15 Jun 2019.

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #70
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Why do we keep pursuing things that don't work?

It’s like the sports betting...gambling....a friend of ours is addicted to. There’s the image of the future time when his big bet on a long shot will pay off. And then what? Images of pleasure from all the things his winnings will be able to buy. Living for images...images of pleasure and fulfillment. The Caribbean cruise, the new sports car, the clothes and fine wine. Who hasn’t dreamed of that kind of thing when young and somewhat naive?

Let it Be

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #71
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1310 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Living for images...images of pleasure and fulfillment.

Instead of actually 'living'?

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #72
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

insecurity caused, in the first place, by images, beliefs, conclusions, and ideals.
"First place" goes way back...how do you see it as having happened?

Very good question! The wrong turn? Inattention? And/or the simple fact that images of future pain and suffering cause fear which we escape from by pursuing pleasure. I need to look further into your question, Dan. I think it’s an important one.

Let it Be

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #73
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Living for images...images of pleasure and fulfillment.
Instead of actually 'living'?

Yet so many of us assume that that’s living...living for the future, instead of being fully alive now.

Let it Be

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #74
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1310 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
images of future pain and suffering cause fear which we escape from by pursuing pleasure.

May be as 'simple' as that.

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #75
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1310 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
.living for the future, instead of being fully alive now.

Definitely a 'human' thing from what I see going on around me here.

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #76
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

.living for the future, instead of being fully alive now.
Definitely a 'human' thing from what I see going on around me here.

And to me, the gambler is a perfect example of that particular behavior. There’s nothing fulfilling or rewarding in the action of placing a bet in and if itself, but only in the images of future success.

Let it Be

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #77
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5098 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

But comforting thoughts DO work....at least somewhat...don’t they?

Dan McDermott wrote:
Yes I'm not getting what Clive says when he says it doesn't work...it's working for everyone.

Well what sort of "working" is this, that you are both describing.

Running away from the problem, deluding oneself, denying the facts, pretending, all the escapes, entertainment, drugs, - do these "Work"? What do we mean by "work"? We know what the world is, actually. It is on the verge of destruction. the natural environment is rapidly being destroyed, natural "resources" as they are called are running out, fertile soil in rapidly disappearing, so many species of animals and plants disappearing ....... you know all this, and so much more, I don't have to say. Nuclear destruction seems closer than ever. And there is the state of most individuals, fundamentally unhappy, fundamentally in conflict in their relationships, depressed, destroying their own bodies and minds with their appetites......

How can all this be said to be "working"? Is it stable? Surely not.

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Sat, 15 Jun 2019 #78
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
How can all this be said to be "working"? Is it stable? Surely not.

It seems to be working for the man who lives for the future. "Seems" being the key word here, right? The social reformer or politician who feels that things will be better in the future, if he tries hard enough to make it so...for the athletes who feel that winning the championship is what life is all about....for the business man who feels that his life will have meaning if his business is a success. If I'm a musician and I sign a recording contract with a major record label, yes, I feel that life is working

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 15 Jun 2019.

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Mon, 17 Jun 2019 #79
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5098 posts in this forum Offline

Have we lost the thread on the original question of Tom's, "What is religion?"? I think somewhere above K's words are quoted - or maybe it is an original insight - that religion is "the gathering together of all energy".

I have been asking myself, what is the nature of this "gathering together"? The phrase puzzles me. "Gathering together" seems almost to imply time, a process in time, and I cannot accept such a thing. It seems to me all forms of accumulation are the activity of the self, and surely the self denies true religion? "Gathering together" does seem to suggest some sort of accumulation.

And then there is the question who might do this gathering together?

I feel sure that all the processes implied in my words above are NOT part of true religion. In fact religion may lie in the very negation of these processes.

Does that imply "doing nothing"? But negation is not a matter of "doing nothing", is it?, it is a very positive action - although it has no positive direction or aim.

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Tue, 18 Jun 2019 #80
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: eligion is "the gathering together of all energy".

I have been asking myself, what is the nature of this "gathering together"? The phrase puzzles me.

Yes, Clive, that was K’s phrase. I agree that it seems to imply time and a someone who does the gathering. Unless it is effortless and instantaneous. And if it is so, it is totally beyond my reach....’me’ who’s energy is fragmented....who am a fragment. Or so it seems.

Let it Be

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Tue, 18 Jun 2019 #81
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 703 posts in this forum Offline

Tom and Clive,

I don’t see “the gathering together of all energy” implies accumulation or time. Energy IS. There is energy. Everything, it seems, is ultimately energy. In terms of the mind’s energy, it is seen that it is scattered, wasted, squandered by “self’s” efforts to become, achieve, avoid, escape, and so on, isn't it?

So where it is NOT being so scattered, broken up, through the “positive” action of thought-time, it is being gathered by the “negative” action of attention or perhaps meditation. It is not gathered together by “me”, not by a process, but by the mere fact of not being scattered. So there is no (psychological) time or accumulation in this gathering together of energy. Whether gathered together in attention or scattered by effort and conflict, energy IS.

Another facet: when people gather together, say, without being compelled to do so, they are not being “accumulated” or fixed together in an inescapable static collection. They gather together and they disperse, without time being necessarily involved.

Does any of this make sense?

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Tue, 18 Jun 2019 #82
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1310 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
"Gathering together" does seem to suggest some sort of accumulation.

Yes... of 'energy' when there is a crisis for example. You become psychologically 'attached' to someone say, and an event, death, tears that person away from you and you feel tremendous 'emotion'...that is the "gathering" as I see it. There is no 'gatherer'...this tremendous energy is gathered together at the loss of this loved one...all 'attention' is focused here. And that is the extreme example, lesser 'crisis' are taking place all the time in the psyche and the energy in those instances is usually dissipated through our escape mechanisms. K. as I understood what he had written down and Mary Z. reported was, that the 'religious mind' through 'intelligence', does not escape from those gatherings of energy because it realizes that those gatherings bring about the possibility of 'attention'. Attention to 'what is'.

K." Religion is a gathering together of all energy to be attentive."

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Tue, 18 Jun 2019 #83
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
It is not gathered together by “me”, not by a process, but by the mere fact of not being scattered.

Interesting....thanks! Interesting issue....will have to look further into this. But a lot of what you wrote makes sense...as well as Dan's most recent post here.

Let it Be

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Tue, 18 Jun 2019 #84
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5098 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
So where it is NOT being so scattered, broken up, through the “positive” action of thought-time, it is being gathered by the “negative” action of attention or perhaps meditation. It is not gathered together by “me”, not by a process, but by the mere fact of not being scattered.

Dan McDermott wrote:
And that is the extreme example, lesser 'crisis' are taking place all the time in the psyche and the energy in those instances is usually dissipated through our escape mechanisms.

I think yesterday I saw how energy gets "gathered" as Huguette and Dan describe. It came as an insight 'out of the blue', and before I read their posts. In fact it was a remarkable example of how insight can just come, in the midst of thought. But to put that insight into words is another matter.

I saw how energy is gathered from inaction. That is, thought was about to act - or rather react - to some challenge,in its usual way, but suddenly it didn't act.There was a sort of discontinuity. And so the energy that would have been wasted in reaction was not dissipated. Probably it is best not to make any positive statement about what happens to it instead. As Huguette said:

It is not gathered together by “me”, not by a process, but by the mere fact of not being scattered.

So why does thought, the self, suddenly not act? it seemed to me something was suddenly seen, and that seeing acted.

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #85
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1310 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So why does thought, the self, suddenly not act? it seemed to me something was suddenly seen, and that seeing acted.

Because when intelligence is present, thought doesn't act mechanically?

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #86
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Clive Elwell wrote:

So why does thought, the self, suddenly not act? it seemed to me something was suddenly seen, and that seeing acted.

Dan: Because when intelligence is present, thought doesn't act mechanically?

How does intelligence enter the picture?
When we’re suffering or in conflict....there’s guilt, anxiety, despair, loneliness, fear, anger.... where does this intelligence come from? Or how does the gathering of energy enter the scene? Clive said, something was suddenly seen....that seeing is insight. But is there anything I can do here? Or must insight and intelligence enter ‘on it’s own’?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 19 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #87
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1310 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How does intelligence enter the picture?
When we’re suffering or in conflict....there’s guilt, anxiety, despair, loneliness, fear, anger.... where does this intelligence come from?

Does its presence have to do with the approach taken when we find ourselves in the grip of what you mention above? Is it 'escape', to change, to "substitute" or is it to understand? Not understand with a motive to get rid of, but just understand, look at, examine...? That is what's crucial it seems to me. Intelligence sees that I am totally conditioned so any action taken to change what is taking place is part of that conditioning. Any system, belief, ideal, religious rite, 'teaching', etc, that I bring to deal with what is going on is only to ameliorate it, and not to truly understand it. So I can't look at what is happening in me through any 'knowledge' at all or there won't be an actual seeing. It can't even be 'named' because that naming is the past, is memory...There will be an obstacle between examiner and what is being examined, a duality. As K. has forcefully said, there must be complete "freedom to examine". And this freedom is at the beginning not the end. And he had no use for the word 'difficult' in relation to all this...but it seems quite 'difficult' to me.

I don't know if this relates to your question about intelligence...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 19 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #88
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
As K. has forcefully said, there must be complete "freedom to examine". And this freedom is at the beginning not the end. And he had no use for the word 'difficult' in relation to all this...but it seems quite 'difficult' to me.

Freedom yes. But that complete freedom means freedom from what we are....our background of beliefs, conclusions, ideals, etc. So it seems that, first, the whole background must be discarded. And when we suffer, the background comes rushing in to try to remove or ameliorate the suffering. This is human nature. So we have to transform our very nature....the nature of consciousness....it would see. Difficult, yes...perhaps impossible. K. sometimes used the word arduous.

Let it Be

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #89
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1310 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
When we’re suffering or in conflict....there’s guilt, anxiety, despair, loneliness, fear, anger.... where does this intelligence come from? Or how does the gathering of energy enter the scene?

Can the 'energy' of 'guilt', 'despair', 'fear', 'loneliness', etc. be 'allowed' to gather and 'blossom' rather than be suppressed and condemned?

And is that non-action or non-movement the appearance of intelligence?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 19 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #90
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2639 posts in this forum Offline

What you are suggesting is contrary to human nature. It’s the total transformation K spoke of perhaps....or the first step, which K said is the last step.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 19 Jun 2019.

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